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>>>I happen to like a silent anaphora because of the time-saving aspect, because the very first Byzantine Liturgy I ever went to did it this way and also because it is an obvious parallel with the Tridentine Mass.

Not to argue with my good friend Serge, but I actually timed how much longer it is with a said out loud anaphora, and it is 3 minutes longer. I think anyone can stand (no pun intended!) three minutes longer, when it affords us the opportunity to meditate on such an important aspect of the liturgy. What can be tediously long is during St. Basil's liturgy when all of the "secret" prayers are said aloud, which take approxiately 30 minutes for the priest to pray if you add all of them up.

I was also wondering about the parrallel with the Tridentine Mass. Isn't in a proper Tridentine Mass (ie the High Mass) the anaphora taken aloud? In my opinion the whispered Low Mass was a liturgical abuse that Vatican II was right to knock out. Too bad they ended up knocking out the High Mass too, and replacing it with... well let's not go there!

Just my thoughts.

In Christ,

anastasios

Anastasios,

Thanks for the info re: the minimal time difference when the St John Chrysostom anaphora is done aloud. I remember the interminable St Basil anaphora during Great Lent at the Orthodox church that did the anaphor� aloud. At a Tridentine Solemn Mass the canon is still quiet. Often the choir sang the Sanctus during the first half of it, then it would sing another long drawn-out musical piece for the Benedictus after the words of institution and elevations with the ringing of handbells.

http://oldworldrus.com

I noticed when visiting our old Ruthenian parish in Arizona that the Epiclesis is taken aloud and the people sing the Amens! The last time we were there (August 2000) the Epiclesis was taken silently. When we visited the Ruthenian parish in Portland, Oregon in the Spring of 2001 it was also taken silently.

Are there many Ruthenian parishes which take the Epiclesis out loud? Of these, are there many where the people say or sing the Amens?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

[ 01-04-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

Hello,

Yes...having a priest say the eklepsis outloud and people responding Amen...is natural and SHOULD take place that way.

In my Byzantine parish (Ukrainian), my priest says it out loud. And I know that a Ruthenian parish in Tulsa..the priest says it out loud.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

PS, I'm a former Oregonian! (7 years) Love Portland!!! Miss Mt. Hood.

Serge wrote:

> Which is wrong: IMO really obnoxious, >reverse uniatism . . . The Gregorian canon of >the Roman Mass is ancient, perhaps even >older than the Byzantine anaphoras of SS. >Basil and John Chrysostom. It seems >perhaps even a kind of phyletism to mess >with it, as wrongheaded as Catholic attempts >to latinize the Eastern rites to �make them >(more) Catholic�.

As a Western Rite Orthodox of the Antiochian Church, I must say that I agree with you that the epiklesis is NOT necessary to a valid Mass - and, as you say, the Roman Canon of the Mass is of great antiquity, perhaps older than the Byzantine Anaphoras. However, I must say that the motivation behind the addition of a Byzantine style epiklesis to the Western Rite Orthodox Mass is not due to any sort of "phyletism" (an over-used word) on the part of the compilers or the hierarchy which approved it.

If anything the epiklesis was added in order to avoid any controversy with a few unlearned, narrow-minded Easterners (particularly Russians) who engage in polemics with Roman Catholics about the exact precise moment of the Liturgy when the gifts become the Body and Blood of our Lord.

In case anyone wanted to see the Western Rite epikleses approved by Antioch, they are as follows:

THE ROMAN LITURGY OF ST. GREGORY

The epiklesis in the Antiochian version appears after the "Supra quae propitio".

In English:

AND we beseech thee, O Lord, to send down thy Holy Spirit upon these offerings, that he would make this bread the precious Body of thy Christ, and that which is in this Cup the precious Blood of thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ, transmuting them by thy Holy Spirit. R. Amen, Amen, Amen."

In Latin:

"SUPPLICES te rogamus, omnipotens Deus: mitte Spiritum Sanctam tuum super nos et super haec dona oblata, et fac Panem pretiosum Corpus Christi tui, et quod in hoc Calice est Vinum, pretiosem Sanguinem Christi tui, transsubstantiando per Spiritum Sanctam tuum. R. Amen, Amen, Amen."

THE ENGLISH LITURGY OF ST. TIKHON

The Tikhonite epiklesis appears after the Oblation "Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father" and before "And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness".

"AND we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to send down thy Holy Spirit upon these thy gifts and creatures of Bread and Wine, that they may be changed into the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son. Grant that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christ�s holy institution, in remembrance of his Death and Passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood."

This epiklesis derives from the various English, Scottish and American versions of the Anglican Liturgy, beginning with the First Prayer Book of Edward VI (1549). The addition of the epiklesis to the 1549 Liturgy was due to Archbishop Cranmer's avid interest in ancient Eastern liturgies. Of course, this invocation was obliterated in 1552 and was not restored until the Scottish Prayer Book of 1637 ("Laud's Liturgy") and the Scottish Non-Juring Liturgy of 1764. The English Non-Jurors, in their Office of 1718, had just inserted the epiklesis of the Liturgy of St. James, whereas their Scottish counterparts revived and re-worked the 1549 Cranmerian one. The first Liturgy of the American Episcopal Church was a Scottish Non-Juring one, brought by the PECUSA's first Bishop, the Non-Juror Samuel Seabury. Later on, the proposed English Prayer Book of 1928 and the Scottish Prayer Book of 1929 included newly worded epikleses.

Benjamin Andersen
St. Mark's Church
Denver, Colorado

Bejamin,

Welcome and thanks for sharing your insight. We often discuss the Western Orthodox but have never had the grace of any's presence on this forum.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Benjamin,

Is it true that the Western Orthodox are attempting to re-establish a Benedictine or Western-rite monastery on Mount Athos, and specifically on the ancient site of the Amalfion?

Pax,

FG

Benjamin,

Welcome!

Be warned: I have a strong opinion on this issue. Don't take it personally.

If anything the epiklesis was added in order to avoid any controversy with a few unlearned, narrow-minded Easterners (particularly Russians) who engage in polemics with Roman Catholics about the exact precise moment of the Liturgy when the gifts become the Body and Blood of our Lord.

Exactly: reverse Uniatism. Uncalled for. Just like the Byzantine Catholics latinizing from a mistaken notion it made them look "more Catholic'.

In case anyone wanted to see the Western Rite epikleses approved by Antioch, they are as follows:

THE ROMAN LITURGY OF ST. GREGORY

The epiklesis in the Antiochian version appears after the "Supra quae propitio".

In English:

AND we beseech thee, O Lord, to send down thy Holy Spirit upon these offerings, that he would make this bread the precious Body of thy Christ, and that which is in this Cup the precious Blood of thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ, transmuting them by thy Holy Spirit. R. Amen, Amen, Amen."

In Latin:

"SUPPLICES te rogamus, omnipotens Deus: mitte Spiritum Sanctam tuum super nos et super haec dona oblata, et fac Panem pretiosum Corpus Christi tui, et quod in hoc Calice est Vinum, pretiosem Sanguinem Christi tui, transsubstantiando per Spiritum Sanctam tuum. R. Amen, Amen, Amen."

A direct copy from the Byzantine Liturgy, as redundant and out of the place as the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar would be at a Byzantine Liturgy.

THE ENGLISH LITURGY OF ST. TIKHON

The Tikhonite epiklesis appears after the Oblation "Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father" and before "And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness".

St Tikhon never wrote a Liturgy: he sent the 1890s version of the American Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod in Moscow and they sent back some suggested corrections, on which this Antiochian service is based. I believe it is true he had the idea of adapting the BCP to serve future converts.

The addition of the epiklesis to the 1549 Liturgy...

I'm surprised I never noticed that before. Thanks.

...was due to Archbishop Cranmer's avid interest in ancient Eastern liturgies.

He sure had a funny way of showing it, considering what he did to English churches once he realized he had free rein.

Of course, this invocation was obliterated in 1552

The year Cranmer realized he had free rein and could be as Protestant as he liked.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Benjamin,

How wonderful to have you here!

St Mark's Church is truly a model of true Western Rite Orthodoxy, to be sure!

Do you have an Icon of All Saints of Britain? If so, are copies for sale?

Do you have a statue of Our Lady of Walsingham? Is there a place that sells them in North America?

Some time ago, I once saw a reference to "King Charles the Martyr" on a leaflet published by your Church.

Do members of your Church venerate King Charles?

thank you,

Alex

The whole debate over the consecratory nature of the Institution Narrative and/or the Epiclesis is fascinating. Unfortunately, there has been no one who has been able to successfully pinpoint when the Holy Spirit does its job.

There are two other points I would like to make. First, the parallel existence of anaphoras that have no explicit Epiclesis and those that have no explicit Institution Narrative. Until we reconcile how this all happened, whereby the believers of both traditions still continued to benefit from the grace of God, we are at the mercy of speculation and polemics.

Eucharistic Prayers as formal written formularies seem to be an early tradition, but not an original Christian practice. There once were 'prophets' who exhibited certain 'charismata' and offered prayers orally at various eucharistic or agape meals. I believe the Didache mentions these things in 10:7 and 15:1-2, including those prayer forms in 9-10.

What does the argument about the Epiclesis have to do with the Anaphora as a whole? What is its context? We can see a definite 'trinitarian' format of the anaphoric formularies in all church traditions. The I.N. fits well in the Christological section and the Epic. fits well in the Pneumotological section. Yet God is ONE and it is God who becomes present. Our heightened sense of ontological-orientation has deprived us of seeing the Trinity working soteriologically - even at our Liturgy. How sad.

Anyway, St. John Chrysostom thought the I.N. was consecratory.

Dear Edwin,

You raise many interesting points!

My wife's grandfather, Fr. Stepan Chabursky, wrote the "Epiclesis" (in Ukrainian) and these are some of his thoughts.

He said that the Trinitarian structure of the Consecration is something that culminates in the Epiclesis, but that the Anamnesis and the Words of Institution are all part of the liturgical action of the Canon.

By way of polemical reflex-reaction, the Epiclesis became the Orthodox "formula of Consecration" just as the WI became the Western formula.

The final "Amen" is therefore not the ending to the Epiclesis as the formula of Consecration, but the ending of the Eucharistic Canon, after which we know that there is no more bread and wine on the Altar, but the Body and Blood of OLGS Jesus Christ.

Alex

Alex,

Your grandfather's point about the "Amen" is worth considering. We forget that Eucharist cannot happen without two or three gathered in His name. Schmemann's first chapter in his "Eucharist" book deals with the prerequisite of the community or assembly for it all to happen. So much emphasis is placed on the mysterious and miraculous event of the coming down of the Holy Spirit that we forget that the Holy Spirit will not attend unless there is a community present (read: no private 'Masses'). The assembly's "Amen" is just as important since it is chanted after the Institution Narrative, the Epiclesis and the end of the Anaphora.

Amen!

Serge wrote:

St Tikhon never wrote a Liturgy: he sent the 1890s version of the American Book of Common Prayer to the Holy Synod in Moscow and they sent back some suggested corrections, on which this Antiochian service is based. I believe it is true he had the idea of adapting the BCP to serve future converts.

I don't think that anyone has ever claimed that St. Tikhon was the direct author of the Liturgy. I might also add that the titles of "Liturgy of St. Peter" or "St. Gregory" for the Roman Liturgy, or the titles "St. Chrysostom" or "St. Basil" for the Byzantine, are not necessarily claims that these Saints were the actual authors or compilers.

As you say, St. Tikhon obtained direction from the Holy Synod of Moscow for the Orthodox revision of the American Book of Common Prayer. St. Tikhon was not able to follow through with this revision, probably because he was called back to Russia.

However, less than a century later, Antioch did follow through. The Holy Synod's directions were followed by the Antiochian Archdiocese when it compiled and approved the Liturgy on the occasion of the reception of the Church of the Incarnation, Detroit, in 1977. The very fact that the Antiochian Liturgy is based directly on the Holy Synod's directions to St. Tikhon merits his patronage.

Benjamin Andersen

FG wrote:

Is it true that the Western Orthodox are attempting to re-establish a Benedictine or Western-rite monastery on Mount Athos, and specifically on the ancient site of the Amalfion?

Not that I know of - I don't think that the pious monks of the Holy Mountain would allow it, given their general view of anything Western!

Benjamin Andersen

Dear Alex,

Dear Alex,

Thanks for the message. We have laminated color laser printings of the Saints of Britain Icon written by Fr. Lester Michael Bundy (of St. Columba's, Boulder), as well as some of St. Cuthbert and St. Edward, King and Martyr, written by one of our very talented parishioners. We do not sell the statues of Our Lady of Walsingham (we should!), but I'm sure they can be obtained from one of the Shrine shops in England:

http://walsingham.org.uk/anglican/shop.html

At St. Mark's many of us do have a fondness for King Charles I - his execution being a very important event in the history of English Christianity which indeed should be marked with prayer and remembrance of Christian courage.

Benjamin Andersen