www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Archbishop in waiting becomes druid

Dear Hieromonk Elias,

I think that you have laid out a nuanced approach to our treatment of respect for the leaders of Churches. To address a leader with respect by the title which is his or hers due to his position in a community of faith is one thing. It does not mean that the one showing respect agrees or disagre with behaviors or beliefs which might or might not be in error or sinful..

I understand the desire to clearly delineate error from truth and sin from holiness. Titles have nothing to do with either. I wonder what honor is given to our Lord by denying the soon-to-be Archbishop of Canterbury his title used by men and women of his communion?

I wonder also by what right someone determines what the heart of another holds? How does anyone know that the Archbishop intended to dishonor his Lord? Where does one find the first stone?

To use accepted titles is common courtesy, nothing more or less. At least, that's how I see it.

Steve

I never thought I'd post this...

I agree with OrthodoxyOrDeath!

Antichrist? Maybe....

Anti-Christian? Yup!

Adapting a quote from Fr. Richard John Neuhaus, the Archbishop of Canterbury has performed an act that poses "theological difficulties even for the Church of England"

I do have one question I would like to post to Dr. Williams...

"Did you enjoy trick-or-treating afterward?"

ONE other thing...

I can't imagine, say, a St. John Chrysostom or St. Athanasius acting as an apologist for Dr. Williams in this matter...

Just my l'il 'ol observation...

Has anyone deriding this action actually gone to the site I posted and seen what the organization is about. Again I would agree that the Archbishop holds many troublesome views from the standpoint of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches. However, this particular incident is not a big deal as I see it. I would liken it to an American/Canadian bishop accepting an honorary tribal membership from a Native American tribe and wearing their ceremonial dress. It is a sign of resepct for their culture not an acceptance of their religious beliefs.

In Christ,
Lance

I would now like to add, after a long and arduous 12mb download of MENOLOGION 2.0...

If anybody would like...
http://saintjohnwonderworker.org/menologion.htm

that there is exactly no difference between this, and being a Mason, who make the exact same arguments; they also say their Satanic celebrations and cermonies of symbolism are not religious in nature and their group is really just a club for making business contacts.

Now who here says it is acceptable for a Christian to join the Masons?

Alex,

"Our "icon corners" were originally "pagan god corners" and our ancestors merely changed the objects of veneration"

Dear one. What you have written is just the point, isn't it? How has the pagan ceremony in which Dr. Williams participated been Christianized? One could give examples all day of the things we have borrowed from non Christian sources. You will get no argument from me on that. But they are usually rechristened. How has this pagan celebration been rechristened?

Dan Lauffer

Dear Orthodoxy or Death,

I would not think it was equivalent to a Masonic ritual.

At the television coverage of the international youth days in Canada, I noticed many national costumes, which were worn with pride, and did not seem offensive to the Christian faith, nor did they seem offensive or inappropriate.

There were no idols at the Welsh festival, and no one worshipped anything or anyone (except perhaps the Welsh language itself, and Welsh'ness). It is neither a pagan cult, nor an 'idol-based' gathering. It is a literary guild, a 'nationalistic' thing for poets, bards, and singers of songs. If it seeks to exalt the national identity, that may be a fault, ...but it is a fault also often practiced in many devout and Orthodox Christian assemblies who make more out of their national pride that a once a year summer gathering.


I would agree with my good friend Sharon Mech, that scandal must be avoided. (We are all to scandal fatigued, I'm sure.) Perhaps His Grace even regrets attending. Was the honor given to the Archbishop, announced and planned before he was elected to Canterbury? If he was still only the Archbishop of Wales, I daresay it would hardly have been noticed. In that case, who would have been scandalized by a Welsh bishop, accepting a curious Welsh honor. In leaving Wales, perhaps he felt it would be the greater scandal and discourtesy suddenly to decline the award?

Of course, theologically he is a liberal and free in his thinking and speculation. But he is not as free as some within liberal C. of E. protestantism (recalling a respected prince bishop of Durham). He is a good pastor, a powerful preacher, a worthy leader in his Church.

His Grace is neither a pagan, nor does he worship idols, nor is he antichrist.

I accept that those who do not know him (as I do), or who have not had some experience of the Welsh national aspirations, would find his acceptance of this award, and his participation in the festival odd.

It would be fair to ask for information or explanation. If the explanation is unsatisfactory, it would be fair to criticize his decision.

It is unfair to jump to conclusions, and condemn the man. In my opinion, His Grace is a good man, and he does not deserve the names thrown at him in this thread.

Elias

Instead of putting words in the Archbishop's mouth:

Pagan Druid Claims Anger Archbishop [news.bbc.co.uk]

Heiromonk Elias,

It is not as though I do not understand your perspective, I do. I have heard that perspective applied to the Masons and to Halloween on many occasions.

In fact, Halloween has direct roots to the Druids which is also said to be harmless fun for the youngsters.

These types of activities gain ground because of spiritual apathy and listlessness, which are the roots of atheism and turning away from God. The dogma of atheism underlies these practices and forms, denying the existence of both God and Satan. The Holy Church stand against them because we are taught by Christ that God stands in judgment over everything we do and believe, and that our actions are either for God or against God. Therefore, the customs of Halloween and Druidism are not innocent, but are demonic, precisely as their origins prove.

The Fathers say: "But why speak of sacrifices and priesthoods? In this place must be handled the subject of holidays and other extraordinary solemnities, which we accord sometimes to our wantonness, sometimes to our timidity, in opposition to the common faith and Discipline. The first point, indeed, on which I shall join issue is this: whether a servant of God ought to share with the very nations themselves in matters of his kind either in dress, or in food, or in any other kind of their gladness. "To rejoice with the rejoicing, and grieve with the grieving," is said about brethren by the apostle when exhorting to unanimity. But, for these purposes, "There is nought of communion between light and darkness," between life and death or else we rescind what is written, "The world shall rejoice, but ye shall grieve." If we rejoice with the world, there is reason to fear that with the world we shall grieve too. But when the world rejoices, let us grieve; and when the world afterward grieves, we shall rejoice.

I stand by my previous points, and rest my case.

May God bless you Heiromonk Elias.

OrthodoxyorDeath,

Charity must reign in all posts on this Forum and it has been absent from some of your recent posts. Any truth that may have been in your posts has been lost because of the uncharitable and disrespectful manner in which you posted it.

Regarding the issue of Halloween I suggest that you do some research. While it has become the custom of some fundamental Christians in our culture to claim that Halloween customs are either atheistic or evil and the secularists certainly take it to silly and unhealthy levels, the celebration of Halloween is clearly one that traces its roots back to the earliest Christian times. In the early Church after the feast of Pentecost there was a common custom of remembering the saints and dressing like saints in witness of them. This eventually developed into the Feast of All Saints which was celebrated on the Sunday after Pentecost. The Church in the west eventually moved this feast to November and the custom of dressing like saints went with it. [I have personally witnessed such celebrations of All Saints Day and All Soul�s Day by Orthodox Churches in the Mid-East]. There certainly has been a corruption of the original celebration and the meaning has been mostly lost but it is incorrect to label it as rooted in the �dogma of atheism�. You may wish to research the issue before hurling condemnations.

In the future please strive to be more charitable in your comments and more respectful of people. If you must condemn then condemn ideas and not people.

Administrator

Very wisely put, Sharon.

I am appalled that any leader of a christian group would participate in a pesudo-religious/pagan ceremony.


Lance,
The web site you posted was for The National Eisteddfod of Wales not for the group knows as the Gorsedd of Bards.

If you go and do a web search on "Gorsedd of Bards" and look at the other sights listed, such as The Gorsedd of Bards of the Isle of Britain [druidorder.demon.co.uk] .

There you can see an example of the prayer used in the "rite" called the Gorsedd Prayer, the version listed is said to be an updated one.

You will notice that it invokes a God and a Goddess.

Fr Elias,
Here is a section on that site that makes me think there is a Masonic connection here, Gorsedd ceremonies are open to all and attended by folk from all over Britain and from many other countries coming from many different spiritual traditions including Druids, Witches, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Heathens, Ba'hai and Shamans. The multiplicity of faiths are recognised as equal and offered the opportunity to express their own spirituality within the Gorsedd circle.

And another that points to a pagan connection, The importance of the Gorsedd is not only that it brings together those of different spiritual traditions, but also that it offers the opportunity for many pagans to celebrate their faith openly and in public, making the old traditions significantly more accessible. This is particularly poignant for groups who have only made their rites and ceremonies in closed and private spaces, and those who would normally practise alone. The sense of freedom and celebration which comes from casting the sacred circle and expressing our spirituality out in the open in a beautiful environment, infuses the Gorsedd and is felt by all who come, from every tradition. As open, family events, they have given to the public and the media a fresh, clear and honest face of Druidry and Paganism, allowing their reputation to emerge out of the occult and into wider acceptance.

So again, I say what do you all think.

David

[ 08-09-2002: Message edited by: DavidB ]

David,

It does not look good to me. I still think a Monty Python like spoof of this affair is in order. I wonder if the old troup would come together just one more time?

Dan Lauffer

Well, the Anglican Church has never been a harbenger of credibility, and to tell you the truth I wouldn't pay atention to it.

It's a FALSE church, like all those episcopalian, protestant and presbyterian sects.