www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Archbishop in waiting becomes druid

I do not know where to place this but I think this topic area is the best place for it.

Here is a link to the news article.


Archbishop in waiting becomes druid [telegraph.co.uk]


What do you think of this?

I know the Anglican communion is a bit out there at times, but for the Head of a Christian group to not only participate but to become one with a pagan group, this can not be good.


David

David,

He's an "honorary" druid. Mebbe that's like an honorary doctorate?


Perhaps in Wales it's no big deal (tho' I doubt it) but for a religious leader who has the visibility of Dr. Williams, it would seem to be at least a gross lapse in judgement.

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

He does look like a character out to Monty Python. If the Anglicans weren't already the laughing stock of the Christian world this sure clinches it.

Dan Lauffer

OK folks - but in defense [ slightly] I'm not sure how active Druids are nowadays.

To my knowledge [ and remember I am rather more North than they are and in another country ] my memories of Druids are/were people who were doing their best to preserve some of the traditions of Wales - the language, music poetry etc.

There may be some Druids who practice their ancient religion.

A quick look at the site of the Gorsedd of Bards organization shows that they are not the new age pagan pseudo-druids that like to make up rituals to perform at Stonehenge but a Welsh literary association. From their site:

"The Gorsedd of Bards is an association whose members consist of poets, writers, musicians, artists and individuals who have made a distinguished contribution to the Welsh nation, language and culture."

The web address is:
http://www.eisteddfod.org.uk/english/index.html

So at closer look this is not anything to be concerned about. Although there are plenty other reasons for Anglicans to be concerned about the choice for their new primate.

Lance

Dear Friends,

The druids of today really aren't pagans - they represent, as the article states, a cultural orientation toward Celtic tradition.

So much of the druidic traditions were "Sained" by the Celtic Christian missionaries and incorporated into their Particular Church.

Like the Christians of Kyivan Rus', the Celtic druids were sun-worshippers and so the sun orb was incorporated into the Celtic Cross with altars that the Celtic priests would keep circling etc.

St Ninian of Whithorn brought in the practice of serving the Liturgy in stone circles etc.

The Mistletoe at Christmas is a Druidic tradition. This was considered sacred to the Druids who used "liturgical gloves" to remove it from the tops of the sacred oak trees.

So sacred it was that people were obliged to hug and kiss in its presence to affirm there was no evil hatred around that would desecrate etc.

To this day, the Canon of Yorkminster in England puts on liturgical gloves and brings in a whole pile of mistletoe into the Cathedral that is placed on a side table at Christmastime.

The close proximity of the Celtic Christian traditions to druidic practices shocked St Margaret, Queen of Scots and was one of the precipitating factors that led to the Synod of Whitby.

St Kenneth and so many other Celtic missionaries were converted Druids.

The Druids knew Latin and Greek as they were highly educated. But they considered their religious rites to be so sacred so as to defy containment or delimiting in writing. So they memorized all their rituals and this was the training of a Druidic priest.

The result was that we today have absolutely no idea how the Druids worshipped and anyone who says that can be duplicated from "historical records" is nuts.

But until the Archbishop begins a service at Westminster with an invocation to the Celtic pagan gods, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Alex

There are many people today who are not smart enough to be heretics. What do we call them?

This news article is shocking. What is more shocking is any attempt to give this man quarter.

In Orthodoxy, everything is symbolic, and a priest is an "icon of Christ�. Of course this man is no priest by any stretch of the imagination.

So if this antichrist Canterbury guy was even remotely Christian he would not take part in a neo-pagan open-air Masonic ceremony of man-centered worship glorifying pagan traditions. He would do as the Orthodox who terminated the pagan/man-worshipping Olympics.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? (2 Corinthians 6:14-15 KJV)

Dress it up all you want, but be aware of whose company you are placing yourself.

[ 08-07-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

I agree with Friend Alex on this one (what else is new?). THe Gorsedd of Bards has nothing to do with the pagan idiots who try to take over Stonehenge every year, refusing to believe that the monoliths were built centuries before the first Celt ever stepped foot on the Isle of the Mighty. They are, as stated earlier, nothing more than caretakers of Welsh traditions, which, through the efforts of organizations like the Gorsedd, have survived surprisingly well, given the prelidiction of the English in the past to root out all non-Anglo forms of culture.

In fact, I'd be surprised if this is so much as batting any eyelids with native Britons of even the most orthodox bent. Only those of us outside Britain, with our Hollywood induced ideas of a Celtic "wicker man" past, would think that the Archbishop is involved in apostasy.

And our Anglican brethren have much, MUCH more things to worry about than the fact that their Archbishop is a "druid".

In Christ,
mikey.

Dear Orthodoxy or Death,

On this forum, we always speak of Churches, and leaders of Churches by their proper titles and with due respect. This is how we conduct ourselves on the Forum. I believe you have broken a rule of courtesy here.

I am more shocked by your reference to "this antichrist canterbury guy", than by anything he has done. I urge you to amend your post.

While you may disagree with his action (and of course you are free to express your opinion), I am offended by your disrepectful address to an international Church leader.

I happen to know Dr. Rowan Williams from my own days at Oxford, and sat in his classes on Carmelite mysticism. They were remarkable and insightful. This literary and cultural guild (with an amusing 'dress up' annual gathering) is not offensive, only perhaps a little hard for non-Welsh to fully appreciate. We have to remember that the Welsh suffered many centuries of cultural and linguistic oppression, and have had to do what they can to preserve a cultural and linguistic identity. The Welsh, and other celtic groups, 'invented' ancient looking traditions and ceremonies and sports and gatherings to replace what was lost cewnturies before, and tried their best to promote a separate identity from the English. They deserve our admiration, more than our condemnation. As a non-Welshman, I do not think you are qualified to judge them.

Of course, I do not agree with the Archbishop of Wales in some of his theology and religion. But I do respect him as a sincere Christian, and as a devout servant of God. He is a good man, and does not deserve such an accusation.

That you have used such language about him, offends me.

Elias

I went to Vespers at St. Elias in Brampton on the weekend in the company of a dear old friend, an Anglican all her life long (and married to an Anglican cleric until he died about 10 years ago) who also happens to be Welsh. She is a very orthodox Christian and a very high church Anglican, and when I asked her thoughts on the new incument of Canterbury, all she could do was look away and shake her head. With clerics like these, as has been remarked before, satire becomes superfluous!

For those so inclined, this week's on-line London Spectator (www.spectator.co.uk [spectator.co.uk]) has an interesting article on how George Carey tried madly behind the scenes to ensure that his successor was anyone BUT Rowan Williams, whom much of the rest of the Anglican Communion, especially in traditional--and rapidly growing--Africa will regard as a force of destruction and heresy apparently.

"with clerics like these, satire becomes superfluous"?

Why am I so uncomfortable with such dismissals of the Archbishop as a person? In my opinion, to suggest he is an unworthy cleric, is unworthy.

In fact, as a person, as I tried to say before, he is highly respected, and sincerely devout, theologically literate, and passionately eloquent in preaching the gospel.

As a traditionalist, and as orthodox in my outlook as my poor abilities will allow me to be; I say that I do not agree with many of his positions.

Clearly, the triumph of the liberal and inclusive wing of the Church of England, has long since marginalized the High Church and traditional congregations within the C. of E. It has disappointed those who hoped that the Catholic wing of the C. of E. would become dominant, and even lead this Church closer to the Catholic communion. In fact, this has not happened, the liberal and Low Church wing has triumphed, and most of the High Church faithful and clergy have long since fled to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

All these things we can discuss and debate. Am I missing something to say, that we can discuss these things, and all theological issues, and yet remain respectful of sincere men, who sincerely are following their conscience and serving Christ with love and zeal. Please, quote the man, attack his theological views, counter his positions, criticize his teachings if you want. Defend the teaching of the Fathers! I will join you.

Adam, I feel that your dismissal of him as a man 'for whom even satire is superfluous', is not speaking respectfully of leaders of Churches. Nor is it fair to His Grace, the Archbishop of Wales, newly elected to Canterbury.

Elias

Bless me a sinner, Venerable Father in Carmel!

I could not agree with you more, Sir!

The fact of the matter is that Greek and Slavic Orthodoxy took "oodles" of stuff from their pre-Christian traditions, including philosophy and even the shape of the Cross itself.

Of course, these things have all been Christianized, but the fact remains that our respective national cultures cannot be limited to only the Christian era.

Where would we Ukies be without the Holy Supper at Christmastime? And how many of us realize that if we never became Christian, that Supper would still be part of our culture anyway, along with that "pagan dessert" or "Kutya."

Our "icon corners" were originally "pagan god corners" and our ancestors merely changed the objects of veneration.

"Batiushka" so widely used in the Russian Church, was the name of the father of the ancient pagan family who performed the pagan home rite near the hearth.

In Greece, pagan philosophy was welded with Christian theology and I think our Greek friends forget how much of their own culture is Christianized paganism, to be blunt.

No Christian Church today can afford not to study its pre-Christian cultural and spiritual roots.

And the Celts were as successful as they were precisely because they blessed so many pagan Celtic practices and objects to be used by Celtic Christians in the new cultural and religious amalgam.

If we think that Christianity somehow came with its own religious culture - it did, and that was Judaism. But the faith of Christ adapted to other cultures as was natural and proper.

Attacks on the Archbishop of Canterbury for belonging to a society that studies Britain's pre-Christian Celtic past are boorish and bespeak of a complete ignorance of one's own inheritance from the pagan past.

Alex

Seems His Grace, the Archbishop of Wales, newly elected to Canterbury, is getting it from all sides.

An excerpt from an article that appeared in July...

"...Dr Rowan Williams, who was named as Dr George Carey's successor on Tuesday, has upset conservative evangelicals for appearing to condone the practice of praying to Mary, which many regard as contrary to Biblical teaching.

A High Church Anglo-Catholic, he says the book was inspired by his pilgrimages to the shrine of Our Lady in Walsingham, Norfolk, which he describes as "England's Nazareth".

In the book, Ponder These Things: Praying with Icons of the Virgin, he argues that the images of the Mother and Child portrayed in medieval icons are holy because they stand on the boundary between the spiritual and the everyday.

The book, which is described in the introduction as "not so much a study of the icon as an invitation to prayer", goes on to to criticise factions within the Church who refuse to compromise because they want to hang on to power.

Referring to the "often tense and politicised atmosphere of our Churches", Dr Williams says: "Our convictions may be strong and may involve us in conflict; that cannot be avoided.

'What can be avoided is letting the spinning (and the spin-doctoring!), the weaving and the knotting of our struggles become so tightly drawn a fabric that the hand of God can barely begin to tear it through . . . How much of this, says the Lord, is the product of fear, the desire for power and success, how much is a sort of postponing of the encounter with God because religion is far easier to manage than God?'

His emphasis on the role and status of the Mother of God in the book will be unwelcome to large numbers of evangelicals in the Church because devotion to the Virgin Mary is seen as a departure from the Bible..."

Didn't even Billy Graham at one time make statements regarding the importance of the role of Mary?

Alex,

The unrelated parallels you are trying to draw do not justify this slander, but it speaks volumes about other matters.

Tell me Alex, would you take part in or allow your children to take part in Halloween, knowing it is a celebration that mocks Jesus whom you love?

I would presume you love your children, or your mother and father; would you take part in a celebration which has as it's basic theme, the complete slander and spite for their existence and character?

You said:
This is the type of intellectualism that is completely devoid of the spirit.

The Holy Fathers ask: "If men have consecrated for themselves this custom from superstition, why do you, estranged as you are from all their vanity, participate in solemnities consecrated to idols?"

As you know, the very foundation of the Holy Church is built upon the blood of martyrs who refused despite painful penalties to worship, venerate, or pay respect in any way to idols. Because of the faithfulness, obedience, and self-sacrifice of the Holy Martyrs, God poured out abundant Grace upon them. Differing from the world's values, humble faithfulness and obedience to God are the very strength of a life in Christ, Who gives us true spiritual peace, love and joy, and participation in the miraculous workings of His Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Church calls us to faithfulness by our turning away from falsehood toward Truth and eternal life.

Hieromonk Elias: I will show this man, who is sadly lost, respect as soon as he shows my Lord God respect.

[ 08-08-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Hieromonk Elias, Father bless!


With great respect, I would observe that while there may indeed be nothing inherently wrong with the organization in quetion, the public perception does matter.

We are told to avoid giving scandal, and to avoid situatiuons that would even give the impression of scandal. (Witness the current situation in which thousands of holy & godly priests now fear to touch another human being!) "Druid" may mean one thing in Wales, but to the rest of the world it does conjure up images of paganism, and rightly so, for the druids were indeed pagans, as are their modern New Age wannabes, who are the folks who make the news. (I used to know a bunch of 'em....)

Dr. Williams is a public figure. As a public figure, his actions are subject to greater public scrutiny than we ordinary folk. It just seems like it wasn't the best idea in the whole world for a Christian leader to appear in a costume that calls to mind the pagans which went by the same name as the modern non-pagan group - an event that has received press coverage, and whether he'd intended it or not, I believe it has given scandal. Most folks don't know him, nor do they know the organization. All they see is the headline.


Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com