www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Archbishop in waiting becomes druid

Dear David,

I admit, from that website there is evidence that they encourage worship of pagan gods.

However that site is from the British druids, a different and definitely more bazare and more pagan version. The address of their headquarters is Wiltshire. A beautiful county (with more than its quota of strangeness).

I am still not convinced that the Welsh gathering has the same ethos as the 'british' (read 'english') one...

But I admit, I seem to be on the losing side of this argument. Perhaps I should admit defeat.

I just wish people weren't so judgemental, either of His Grace, or of his Church.

For example our friend Remie calls it a "False" Church. That is however neither the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church, or most Orthodox Churches, who have had fraternal, theological, and cordial dialogues for the greater part of the last century. In particular, the Orthodox Churches have (in the past more so than today since the ordination of women), had very close contact with the Church of England.

In particular, the language of the ARCIC (Anglican-Roman Catholic International Consultation) is sometimes quite startling, and definitely worth a careful read.

Ecumenism gets such bad press (especially lately among Orthodox and Eastern Christians), and yet why can't we speak respectfully of one another, and affirm what it good and worthy within one another's tradition? Why is it so fashionable to condemn other Churches?

The Church of England produces beautiful worship, (Cathedral evensong is always worth an hour of one's time, especially on Friday, when the choirs traditionally sing without the organ background). It has a wonderful tradition of bible preaching; affirms the classic creeds; professes the 3-fold Orders; etc. etc. The common position is that their Church is not complete, but that does not make it "False".

It is my contact with so many good Christians in the Church of England, that has made me respect them. Personal contact, I believe, is better than making judgements based on reports in papers (like Mr. Murdoch's Times, a shadow of the former paper of that name).

One quality I admire in their Church, is that in my memory and experience, all the members were unfailingly courteous, charitable, and slow to judge others. Perhaps they were following a bible precept?

Elias

[ 08-09-2002: Message edited by: Hieromonk Elias ]

Fr Elias,

First of all thank you for the recognition that English is not the same as British The Celtic Nations must stick together !

As an ex-Anglican I echo your thoughts about the Anglican Liturgy - the music is/was wonderful and in the Churches where I sang in the Choir the congregations always joined in with heart and voice. Mind I do think that nothing can beat the Welsh when it comes to Choral singing - oh those wonderful Welsh hymn tunes - there is honestly nothing like them and when sung by a Welsh male voice choir - well I defy anyone to be unmoved .

However to the matter in hand - the Druids.

I think it is a shame that the Welsh emphasis on the cultural aspect of their Druidic life seems to have got lost in the insistance on the link with Druids and their religious rituals. I have no great love for Dr Rowan Williams but I do think he has to be given a chance to prove himself.

It really cannot be emphasised enough, that his institution as an Honorary Bard is institution in the Cultural side of Druidism in Wales. The Eisteddfod is a celebration of language, poetry and music.Awards here are given, and highly regarded, for work in prose, verse and music[ and they are all in Welsh too ]. It attracts Celts from all over the World just for these aspects of their common background.It is not religious [ at least not in that very ancient Druid practice] There are what we would know as religious services there - where God is indeed worshipped and praised.

The English 'new age' druids are not part of this - having looked at the Site given by DavidB I note that their Gorsedd was set up anew in 1792 in England by one Edwin Williams who composed the ceremony himself ! How authentic this is I do not know. The rest of the Site goes on to discuss the BDO- the British Druid Order [actually it looks more like the English Druid Order ]- note the identities of the people named - 'bobcat' and 'greywolf'. I also had a look at the page where up and coming Gorseddau were to be held - not one as far as I could see in Wales!

The Welsh deserve praise for the preservation of their language and culture - Welsh is a living language - it is used on Road signs , they have their own Assembly, documents are printed in Welsh and in some areas all schooling is in Welsh. Is it wrong for them, then, to have an Eisteddfod and a Gorsedd which accentuate their national culture ? [ just as a point of information they are further on than we Scots in the use of our language ]

I'm sorry but this adopted Scot, with Welsh and Scottish blood in her is getting a wee bit hot under the collar here.

A final plea - please please can we stop comparing apple and oranges here - forget the English Druids and respect Dr Rowan Williams as a Church Leader who has been given national honour. I suspect this singular honour was organised long before it was known that he was to be the new Archbishop of Canterbury. He is not yet Rowan Cantuar - please give him a chance.

Now I feel that I must apologise for this post - I have not been so annoyed for quite a time.

Fr Elias I must also apologise if I have not addressed you correctly - please put it down to ignorance and not dis-respect .

Angela [ adopted Scot, a mixture of English, Welsh and Scots parentage, ex Methodist, ex Anglican and proud of all she has inherited from that lot ]

[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Hi friends, maybe my last post was intolerant. I also think that there are many good christians among the Anglicans. I didnt't refer to them when I said it was a FALSE church.
I also praise their good liturgies, the Book of Common Prayer (in spite of its protestant influences) is a good representative of the modern Western liturgy. Yestereday I went to a Baptist Service and it was very vibrant an interesting, but it's still a FALSE church.
Although the protestant communities are not true churches they still have elements of the true christian doctrine.
The Anglican Church in particular was very close to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, until they decided to transform the Anglican Communion in a circus that permits grotesque scenes like that of the women-priests wearing roman mitres, "concelebrating" with bonzes and brahamanis (pagan priests).

The probable candidate to the Archdiocese of Canterbury and the Primacy of the C of A has a renewed interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, but he is also a liberal man who encourages the ordaination of women to "priesthood" and the ordaination of gay men too.
What credibility do they have?

Ah now Remie with 2 points I am in total agreement with you
1)The Anglican Church in particular was very close to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, until they decided to transform the Anglican Communion in a circus that permits grotesque scenes like that of the women-priests wearing roman mitres, "concelebrating" with bonzes and brahamanis (pagan priests).

and
2)The probable candidate to the Archdiocese of Canterbury and the Primacy of the C of A has a renewed interest in Eastern Orthodoxy, but he is also a liberal man who encourages the ordaination of women to "priesthood" and the ordaination of gay men too.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the passage of time.

BTW when you said Primacy of the C of A did you mean the Primacy of the Anglican Communion ?

[ 08-10-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Fr Elias,

I agree with you and I am sorry that a topic of discussion that I started end up with some very uncharitable things being said about His Grace and of his Church.

I have heard some wonderful things about the Anglican Use within the Roman Church and have read some good things about the Anglican Church, as well as some bad, but then we all have our bad sides.

My point in this was to ask if it is proper for a Church leader, any Church leader, to participate in a ceremony, or rite, that at the very least appears pagan in nature.

That was it.

I will also have to believe as you say that this group is not pagan in nature as you have more experience in this than I do.


David

This is mostly a matter of perspective. What appears to us an ocean away to be pagan worship is apparently a cultural and social event for the Welsh people. If you took a first time visitor from China who spoke no English to a high school football game on an autumn Friday night in southwest Virginia (one complete with people dressed as chickens and tigers) and this person witnessed the stadium kneeling in prayer before the game he or she would surely consider it pagan worship.

--

Remie,

I have many friends who are Baptist. While the Baptist faith does not embrace the fullness of the Gospel it is certainly not a false faith. The faith my Baptist friends have in Christ is oftentimes deeper and more affirming that what I have seen in some members of our Churches that do have the fullness of the Gospel. Why do you insist on using language that your Church does not use?

--

OorD,

The fact that the Church of England is wrong on many issues does not automatically make it evil. It is sad that you have chosen to personally attack and vilify someone as being in league with the evil one when you don't know the person and have never met him and are acting merely upon the strength of an internet news article. Thankfully, none of my Orthodox friends offer such condemnations of anyone. I respectfully request that you either offer a definitive statement by your bishop that the Orthodox Church condemns this man as satanic or withdraw your unchristian accusations. Condemn his theology if you must (and I will join you in stating that they have missed the mark) but do not judge any individual lest you bring an even harsher judgment upon yourself. If you choose not to submit to the requirements of Christian charity that this Forum adheres to then I invite you not to post in the future.

Administrator

No offense to my Catholic friends, but your Knights of Columbus, well......

Admin,
I understand this. What we need is a clarification of such things.

Instead of His Grace getting angry at the press and everyone talking about how this a pagan act, maybe he, and others involved, could use this as a time to promote the understanding of the culture of the Welsh people.

The world is more of a global place now, with the internet and the press. We must acknowledge this and act accordingly.

David

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidB:

...maybe he [His Grace, the Archbishop of Wales] , and others involved, could use this as a time to promote the understanding of the culture of the Welsh people.


I think that is just what he was doing at the festival, as well as witnessing to the Christian faith there.

I am sorry, I never meant that the Anglican Church was evil. When I said it was false I meant false and not evil or satanic (I would never use that language). I also said that the Anglican Church still shares a lot of things with us.
Maybe I need a definition of what makes a Church. What most of the Orthodox authors, as well as the (non liberal) Catholic authors say is that the Anglican Church is not a true Church because:

1) Its Apostolic Succesion is not clear (it was thought that some of the original Bishops posessed it when received from Rome, but not all of them). Anyway it was broken when it accepted the ordaination of women.
2) It has protestantized sacraments. Since they rejected the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, for example, they don't have a true Eucharist.
3) It doesn have a true priesthood, and the remains of that priesthood were destroyed when they ordained women (I believe that this was an enormous offense against the Christian faith).
4) It's not a Communion of faith since the Church of England is in communion with many christian denominations that have different beliefs, including some who didn't preserve the Historical Episcopacy (that's the way they refer to the Apostolic Succesion).

About our conduct toward the pagan religions. I would like to know how the Malankar-Malabar churches treat and see their pagan brothers in India. I think it would be a good example.

Participation of christian leaders in this kind of ceremonies most be analized carefuly.
During the Prayer of Assisi with the Pope and leaders of other religions, an unusual protest of Catholics took place in Belgium. Even the Archbishop had to cancell his trip to Italy because of the feelings of many angry catholics who saw the prayer as an offense, specially when a statue of Budha was placed near �{ a Christian Altar. They also protested when the Pope traveled to India and Africa, where he took part in "sincretist" (the term used in the protests)ceremonies.

[ 08-12-2002: Message edited by: Remie ]

Ummmm, I rather not. But, yes, if I had to, I would do it carefully.

Axios

Sorry to sidetrack this with an idiotic question, but Axios made me wonder: What exactly is the KOC? Is it fundamentally a Catholic social club for men that supports charities? Can someone give me a short answer without running afoul of the topic? Also, are their Byzantine KOC groups? I must admit I've never noticed if there was one at my own parish.

Witnessing to the Christian faith?

The words of St. John Chrysostom may have a place here: "This is why I hate the Jews. Although they possess the Law, they put it to outrageous use. For it is by means of the Law that they try to entice and catch the more simpleminded sort of men. If they refused to believe in Christ because they did not believe in the prophets, the charge against them would not be so severe. As it is, they have deprived themselves of every excuse because they say that they do believe in the prophets but they have heaped outrage on him whom the prophets foretold."

How do we treat "the pagans"? You said it yourself. As brothers. I've never heard otherwise, anyway.

Axios:

And you, also, have a DOM!?


AmdG