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No. I for one would NOT. There is only one condidtion of reconciliation, and that is that the Bishop of Rome became Orthodox in his beliefs. There is no other way!
Dear Kolya,

First of all, I would like to welcome you. smile

You state that you are a convert to the Russian Orthodox Church. As a Greek Orthodox (cradle) I have come to greatly admire the unique Russian spirituality, patrimony, and the richness it brings to world Orthodoxy and even world Christianity!

I must ask you, however, to refrain from such remarks as the above. I have heard this kind of remark before, and it seems to be a popular one with the more fundamentalist Orthodox among us.

This board serves a very holy purpose. Most of the members here desire spiritual reconciliation of Christ's Church, with the brother Patriarchs all united, as was the model of the Church for the first 1000 years.

Families grow apart, and cultures change them, but we are still related. When we stubbornly insist that we can only be reconciled if the other becomes like us, because we are the only 'correct' one, because our cultural approach is the best one, then we are closing the door to the love and forgiveness Christ COMMANDED of us, *if* we are to truly follow Him in deed and not just word. We also, thus, close the door to brotherly and spiritual unity, which is also something Christ demands of us.

I have heard critics of the above statement, good and pious people, say that such statements as the one above are the height of 'self love'. I am sure that is not the case with you, but those few words can negatively impact and insult your brothers and sisters who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, our estranged Patriarch, and first among equals.

Please remember that you are a guest here and that our Orthodox brothers and sisters that welcome us here are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. They are Orthodox in praxis, but Catholic in affiliation.

Let's put the best face of Orthodoxy forward for this board and for the world to see: one where we practice the ascetic disciplines of historical Christianity, one where we adhere to age old traditions and beliefs, but also one where we shine with the love, the understanding, and the compassion of Christ...for, in Orthodoxy, we are called to be holy icons of His very image! Orthodoxy IS Christianity, and Christianity is charity, love and humility.

I hope that your membership on this board will be a mutual learning experience. We have, I am sure, much to learn from you, and you can also learn much about the Latins and their Bishop from some of the topics here. It is in understanding, education, and charity that we will solve our differences.

May God bless you richly,
and look forward to you sharing the riches of Russian spirituality with us, smile
Alice

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Dear Friends,

Everything aside, why should the Moscow Patriarchate be against religious pluralism?

Is it anti-democratic?

Does it think that if the Eastern Catholic Church "sets up shop" in Kyiv that Orthodox will be converting to it en masse?

Is Orthodox commitment that weak?

Also, studies have shown that Ukrainians AND Russians in Kyiv have nothing against the UGCC establishing itself there - the only ones who are against it is the Russian Orthodox hierarchy who regards Ukraine as its canonical territory.

As for the canonicity issue, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP and UAOC are uncanonical because the Russian Church says so. The Russian Church herself committed an uncanonical act when it established herself as a Patriarchate and a few others.

As for nationalism, this is a very tired argument. The Orthodox Churches are ALL nationalistic, it's part of their make-up, PEOPLE!

In fact, there are some Orthodox Churches that go beyond nationalism and espouse an imperial church ideology.

I won't mention any names though!

As for the success of Cardinal Kasper's mission and what he's now coming up against - I will NOT say "I told you so." wink

That's just not something I would do!

But let's leave the Uniates alone for a minute.

Why won't the Russian Orthodox Church support an autocephalous (and canonical, because approved by it) Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarchate based in Kyiv?

Wouldn't that solve the church problems in Ukraine?

And President Victor Yuschenko is INDEED a member of the UOC-KP - I know because I asked him myself when I met him.

Ukrainian Orthodox who are truly "Ukrainian" would not belong to the UOC-MP which is considered the Russian Church in Ukraine.

This does not prevent the Ecumenical Patriarch from now having very warm relations with that "uncanonical" President.

Just between us, I think we will see an establishment of canonical relations between the UOC-KP and Constantinople in the not too distant future.

There will be a lot of consternation, but it will happen.

Ah, religion and politics!

Alex

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Ukranians have the right to worship as they see fit in any church they want. If any Ukranians want to worship in a church not affiliated - or controlled - by Patriarch Alexey, then Patriarch Alexey should get used to it.

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Dear Friends,

Most of you know what I think about the situation of the Churches in Ukraine.

At the same time, I offer up my prayer to OLGS Jesus Christ that He may unite those Churches in unity and love in accordance with His Will, and not ours.

Alex

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Alice, evcharisto, thank God you are back. Chronia polla.

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Dear Joe Thur,

"Let the Ukrainians speak for themselves."

In 1988, the Vatican issued a letter to Moscow that affirmed that the Moscow Patriarchate is the heir to the tradition of St Volodymyr the Great.

As far as I know, the Vatican did NOT consult with Ukrainians before it spoke on their behalf.

So what has changed now that the Vatican should allow the Ukies to speak for themselves?

Are you being paid by the Vatican to say this? smile

Alex

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Alex,

They are learning:

"It's not my task to speak about another church, they must do it themselves.�-Walter Cardinal Kasper when questioned whether the UGCC would be discussed on his trip to the MP.

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;5829

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Alex, hopefully Joe and everyone else knows by now the Ukrainians have indeed spoken, many, many times. Being listened to is another story.

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Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Well, as Diak has said, the Russians and everyone else know the position of the UGCC.

What Cardinal Kasper will have difficulty with is to try and hold ecumenical talks with the Russian Orthodox in isolation to the UGCC issue.

He may believe that the UGCC matter can be separated from the Rome-Moscow ecumenical thing.

But it will become clear to him that Moscow will NOT let him believe that.

He said what he said not to acknowledge the UGCC's right to speak and act on its own behalf.

He said that to underscore his perspective that the history of the UGCC is not an integral part of the history of the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

That is simply an ahistorical assumption to make and one that will get him nowhere.

The Russians will, once again, remind him of this.

I also wish to affirm my opposition to the name of this thread using the word "Craziness."

No, the Russians are not crazy. They know their identity and they know what their politics are.

It is Kasper, Rome and members of the UGCC who are being "crazy" here.

Alex

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St Roman of Zvarych will be great a unifying force for all Orthodox and Greco-Catholic Christians of Ukraine. Does anyone know where I could get an icon of him ?

I.F.

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Dear Friends,

O.K., let me ask this question.

IF it comes to pass that the only stumbling block to reunification between Catholics and the Russian Orthodox Church is the "Uniate question," could Rome somehow annul the Unias and say, "Either come over to the Roman Catholic Church or else return to the Orthodox Church from whence your ancestors came?"

What say you?

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

O.K., let me ask this question.

IF it comes to pass that the only stumbling block to reunification between Catholics and the Russian Orthodox Church is the "Uniate question," could Rome somehow annul the Unias and say, "Either come over to the Roman Catholic Church or else return to the Orthodox Church from whence your ancestors came?"

What say you?

Alex
As they say - anything is possible. :rolleyes:

I'd respond by saying "I'm glad I've invested in a complete set of UOC-KP service books." cool

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

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Dear Kobzar,

And the only thing we UGCC'ers would have to get used to is to spell "Patriarch" in Ukrainian with an "a" rather than a "ya." Ya?

Do you have an address one could write to to obtain their Psalter? And its cost?

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

O.K., let me ask this question.

IF it comes to pass that the only stumbling block to reunification between Catholics and the Russian Orthodox Church is the "Uniate question," could Rome somehow annul the Unias and say, "Either come over to the Roman Catholic Church or else return to the Orthodox Church from whence your ancestors came?"

What say you?

Alex
But if reunion happens, the Unia should be no issue at all, as they would simply be part of the Church...I think Rome would do well in that case to stop commemorating the Pope with every DL, and adopt the Eastern form of commemorating the next one up on the food chain, as it were...which may make the MP feel less like things are out of control, and a foreigner is in charge. They could commemorate their local hierarch under whose authority and blessing they would serve. I think that would go a very long way toward changing the attitude problem Moscow seems to have, but, in any event, there would be no need to dissolve the Unia if Rome and the Orthodox Church reunited...as any reunion with Rome will put the Eastern Catholics in the same position as the Orthodox jurisdictions they correspond to, wouldn't it?

Gaudior, who knows that eventually the MP must unbend a trifle, mustn't he?

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Dear Gaudior,

You raise a fascinating point re: commemorations!

In the UGCC, for one, the Pope of Rome is commemorated four times during the DL . . .

Originally, after the Union of Brest, ONLY the Uniate Metropolitan of Kyiv commemorated the Pope of Rome - and this only once during the DL's he celebrated.

The Pope's name wasn't HEARD at the parish level and only the Metropolitan and the local Bishop were commemorated.

In fact, to come into union with Rome simply meant to come into union with the Metropolitan who was in union with Rome.

Later, the Pope was commemorated twice, at the Great Entrance and after the Eucharistic Canon.

And still later, the Ruthenian Churches (Ukrainian, Belarusyan, Carpatho-Rusyn) introduced the commemoration of the Pope during the Ektenias.

One could see this as a gradual Latinization (although I don't really see how since we commemorate the Pope more times than the most traditional RC's!).

I think the problem lay in the way the commemorations are set out in the DL.

The local Hierarchs are ALWAYS commemorated throughout the Divine Liturgy. The Moscow Patriarch is always commemorated this way as well.

I think that with union with Rome, our churchmen began to think there was something abnormal about commemorating everyone from the Metropolitan down, but not the Pope - as if he was not an integral part of the EC hierarchy - which he is not, of course.

But then there were a number of historic instances when entire groups of Uniates left the union with Rome and returned to Orthodoxy ie. under Met. Joseph Siemashko who led 3 million EC's to Orthodoxy (and I believe the Orthodox Church established a feastday for that event).

So it was just natural for our Latinophrones to press for the papal commemoration at every ektenia and at the "Many Years" singing at the end of the DL.

I personally much prefer the way the Melkites do it - they commemorate the Pope of Rome at the parish level, but just once, as I understand.

We Ukrainian Catholics are so concerned about resembling the Latin Catholics that we've even taken, as a quite liturgical model, the Novus Ordo which our liturgists at Rome have imagined is a "shortened" version of the Mass.

So that is why our Latinophrone liturgists have likewise introduced "shortening" into our DL by officially dropping the Second Antiphon (so why is the second we use called the "Third Antiphon?") and also dropped the Ektenia for the Catechumens etc.

The spirit doesn't "rise" for such "shortening!"

But the shortening also makes more evident the terrible redundancy of a four-fold papal commemoration . . .

It seems to demonstrate a terrible insecurity on our part, as if we are afraid that our people will become "infected with schism" and become so "invincibly ignorant" that they will follow their ancestors and go "over to Orthodox schism."

I heard one of our bishops use those words to me once . . . He also cautioned me about my icon of the "Pillars of Orthodoxy" - "you can keep it for art's sake, Alex, but remember those people were promoters of disunity . . ." wink

As for the Moscow Patriarch - I don't really see anything wrong with him, save for the UGCC thingy.

He is doing more than most Patriarchs in the past to build up the Russian Church by canonizing Saints, establishing parishes throughout Russia and strengthening the presence of the Orthodox Church in Russia.

He is right to criticize Rome for being disrespectful toward Orthodoxy in Russia - my in-laws saw for themselves when they were in Russia how 'respectful' RC proselytism is over there. I've also received pamphlets published by GC nuns that try to convert Ukrainian Orthodox students in religiously-neutral Ukrainian student organizations!

That is NOT right!!

And what I admire most about the Moscow Patriarch is how he is trying to reunite the separated parts of the Russian Church into one whole - the ROCOR and the Old Believers especially.

(I would recommend to him that he include the names of the Old Believer Saints and Martyrs in the General Russian Orthodox Calendar as a goodwill gesture wink ).

In fact, I wish the Ukrainian Orthodox had a similar Kyivan Patriarchate (canonical) with a strong Patriarchal leader like that.

25% of Ukrainian Orthodox today identify with Orthodoxy but say they belong to NO Orthodox jurisdiction.

They want to belong to a "Ukrainian Orthodox" jurisdiction that is canonical etc. And they don't see the current "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" the branch plant of the Moscow Patriarchate as that.

That is the real tragedy.

Moscow should let go or it should do the best thing it could - help establish a canonical UOC Patriarchate based in Kyiv and then let go of it completely.

If not, the Ukrainian Orthodox will do it themselves, uncanonically at first, but then canonically in the final analysis.

The EP can be persuaded in this respect, especially if the UOC-KP would be willing to be in direct communion with it etc.

This is already happening, with the Ukrainian government's passive cooperation.

The Russian government is also close to the MP as well (or so I've been told! wink .

Again, to call the Ukrainian Orthodox "nationalistic" is . . . true.

So what? What are the Russian Orthodox if not chauvinistically nationalist?

Or is it that only imperial Churches of the past may exercise this as their sole prerogative?

Alex

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