0 members (),
280
guests, and
70
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,460
Posts417,208
Members6,096
|
Most Online3,380 Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
In light of all of the discussion about who can and cannot receive Eucharist where and what the Orthodox really believe about all of this, I thought I would post the following news-piece, which is relatively self-explanatory. Those who have read Jim Forest's book "Praying with Icons" will be familiar with Fr. Zenon.
======TEXT FOLLOWS====
An interview with Fr Zenon,from Keston New Service:
Three years ago, in November 1996, Archbishop YEVSEVI (SAVIN) of Pskov and Velikiye Luki banned Archimandrite ZENON (TEODOR) from serving the liturgy. Archimandrite Zenon, a famous icon-painter and 1995 laureate of the Russian State Prize, was punished for having taken communion with Catholics at a Mass celebrated in the Mirozh monastery in Pskov by the Italian Catholic priest Father ROMANO SCALFI, the director of the Milan-based centre Russia Cristiana. The punishment imposed on Archimandrite Zenon evoked a stormy reaction in the Catholic and Orthodox press. Archpriest VALENTIN ASMUS, an Orthodox writer popular in church circles, supported Archbishop Yevsevi's move in the pages of the Moscow paper Radonezh. But the French Orthodox theologian OLIVIER CLEMENT spoke up in Archimandrite Zenon's defence in the Paris paper Le Monde.
Father Scalfi wrote to Russian Orthodox Patriarch ALEKSI to stress that in conducting a Mass in an Orthodox monastery he had not intended to `violate canonical rules', but rather he wished to `overcome the painful divisions which still exist between our two Churches'. Archimandrite Zenon for his part pointed to the precedents of ecumenical eucharists which had taken place with the blessing of the Moscow Patriarchate. In particular, in an interview with IGOR VINOGRADOV, the editor of the journal `Kontinent' (published in `Kontinent' No. 97), Archimandrite Zenon declared: `In the Trinity-St Sergius Monastery [in Zagorsk/Sergiyev Posad], back in the days of Patriarch PIMEN when I was living there, the Smolensk church was specially assigned for Catholic services ... A Benedictine monk in the Pskov Monastery of the Caves took communion before my very eyes in Lent 1979 from the same chalice as Father IOANN KRESTYANKIN, his deputy and all the venerable elders, and there was never any scandal about that.'
Archimandrite Zenon remains, as before, banned from carrying out his priestly functions. He lives in the village of Gverston fifty kilometres from Pskov right by the Russian-Estonian border. He has refused contact with the outside world and does not travel anywhere (rumours that he spends a lot of time abroad have not been confirmed), nor does he receive visitors. Archimandrite Zenon refuses contact with the press and over a long period has not given a media interview. He made an exception for Keston News Service in this interview, recorded in July 1999.
ALEKSANDR SHCHIPKOV: Father Zenon, it is three years since on the order of your ruling hierarch Archbishop Yevsevi you have been banned and do not have the right to conduct the liturgy. The reason for the ban was your joint communion with Catholics.
ARCHIMANDRITE ZENON: I did indeed take communion at a Catholic Mass which was celebrated by the Catholic priest Father Romano Scalfi in the church of the Mirozh monastery which had not yet been consecrated. This was not a public service, but it became known to Archbishop Yevsevi through a denunciation written by a certain emigre tourist who is a parishioner of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. He witnessed this service solely by chance. I do not intend to descend into canonical arguments over the fact that a ban was imposed on me through the testimony of a member of another Church. Likewise I do not intend to conceal the fact that I did take part in a joint eucharist with Catholics. It is possible that formally the bishop treated me correctly, though in the spirit of the Gospel incorrectly.
AS: The prohibition may be lifted only if you recant?
AZ: Our church recognises Catholic sacraments, so this means that it recognises also the Catholic Church itself, as sacraments are not conducted outside the church. You cannot approach church sacraments without faith. I am being pressured to recant, but recant for what? That I took the Body and Blood of Christ? I cannot repent of that, as that would constitute direct blasphemy and mockery of Christ.
AS: You are accused of absence of humility and excessive pride, the source of which is your realisation of your own talent as an icon painter.
AZ: An icon painter is not an artist in the worldly sense of the word. He must not express himself in the icon. He must paint the icon in a way so that it will be an aid to prayer. Icon painting is an integral part of divine service. A badly-painted icon grates in the same way as bad church singing or poor, illiterate reading of the texts of the liturgy. The Lord gave me the ability to paint icons. My talents belong to Him and I have nothing to be proud of about this. I am not the only icon painter in the Church and I am prepared to submit if I am condemned as a sinner or as a bad icon painter. But I cannot submit when I am being forced to insult church sacraments. AS: The Pskov clergy told me that Archbishop Yevsevi said of the sacraments of the Catholic Church that if an Orthodox Christian - physically unable to take communion at an Orthodox liturgy - takes the Holy Gifts from the hands of a Catholic priest he is indeed partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ. But if he goes to communion at a Catholic Mass without being compelled by necessity ( for example here in Russia, where there are many Orthodox churches) he does not receive grace as in that case the Holy Gifts do not constitute the Body and Blood of Christ.
AZ: Grace does not depend on geography or on political borders. Grace bears an ecumenical, that is a universal character. The Jews did not maintain relations with the Samaritans, and the Samaritan woman whom Jesus asked for something to drink was surprised by His request. Do you remember how Jesus replied? `If you only knew what God is offering and who it is that is saying to you: Give me a drink, you would have been the one to ask, and he would have given you living water.' [John 4: 13-14]. This is the example of ecumenism from the Gospel and it was Christ Himself who gave it. The essence of deep ecumenism lies not in overcoming jurisdictional arguments, but in seeing in the other your brother. It is impossible to view everyone around you as enemies. Latins have always been different from Byzantines, even before the schism [of 1054 AD]. Forms and traditions have differed. The Gospel truth has been absorbed into national cultures in their own way. The schism exists, I agree, but heresy does not! The holy Filaret Drozdov did not even consider Lutherans as heretics. As for myself, I personally do not want to live any more with enmity.
AS: Are you pessimistic about the future of our Church?
AZ: I take a sober view. If the existing conditions continue, then we can expect nothing good ahead of us. One needs to be honest with oneself and with the members of the Church. The church authorities are trying to please everyone: both the right and the left, the secular world and the world of the Church. But it is impossible to please everyone. Christ was without sin, yet even He did not please everyone. A sectarian spirit has enveloped our Church and there is a danger it could remain in the same isolation as the Orthodox Church Abroad. Self-isolation is death.
AS: Have you thought of going over to Catholicism?
AZ: I am a monk of the Russian Orthodox Church. I am not going to transfer either to the Catholic Church or even to another Orthodox jurisdiction. I know that the Moscow Patriarchate never forgives anyone anything, but I know how to wait. I will sit and wait.
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
In regards to AZ, I believe he should have asked his bishop's permission to worship in the Catholic mass. This is an abnormal behavior and a disobeidance to his bishop. As much as we pray for unity between the two churches AZ should of consulted with his superior. Generally speaking, there is to be no worship in the eucharistic celebration with Catholics. Don't argue you with me. Take it to my bishops. Orthodox must be in obeidance to the bishops or the hierarchs in communion with one another. No layperson or clergy should act like a Protestant by ignoring canon law. I am sure he had good intentions but he ignored the rules. In Christ, Robert
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24
Moderator Member
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24 |
Robert,
God bless the Archimandrite! If more Catholics and Orthodox had his great love the seperation would cease today. The rules in place today make no sense. If there is no Orthodox liturgy then the Catholic liturgy provides grace, but if there is the Catholic liturgy does not provide grace. Bull shit! The only lack of grace I can see is in the Archbishop who issued such a ridiculous statement. Can anyone imagine Christ coming to earth and distributing the Eucharist and refusing anyone who loved him whether Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant? If you can I feel sorry for you. The canon laws and bishops regulations do not supercede Christ's law of love. If a valid liturgy is administered then all present who believe in the Real Presence should be invited to receive. In fact this is the current stance of the Roman Catholic Church. All Orthodox, Assyrian, and National and Old Catholics are welcome. To bad many of the Orthodox Churches are not as loving.
Lance Weakland
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I read this interview when it came out. There is a really good book called "Russian Icons Today" which features icons being produced in the revitalized Russia by various iconographers, Fr. Zinon is considered to be the best of the lot. Despite his artistic talents he should have known, as should have the Italian priest, that such things are forbidden by the canons. What the Moscow Patriarchate did in the 70's with intercommunion was wrong and they changed course to correct that excess. Almost all sober Orthodox and Catholics agree that communion is not to be taken lightly and will be realized after things are reconciled, if that is God's will. Particularly for the Orthodox - Holy communion is a serious affair, done usually after confession and with the blessing of one's spiritual father - that should have been Fr. Zinon's way, particularly if he is a monastic. Regardless, I of course found this quote: "but it became known to Archbishop Yevsevi through a denunciation written by a certain emigre tourist who is a parishioner of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. He witnessed this service solely by chance." to be the most stupid thing he said. Still, Fr. should repent and this 'punishment' come to an end, because God has given him talent to paint icons and also because, as St. Tikhon of Zadonsk so beautifully put it, "Forgiveness is better than revenge"
In Christ, John
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
John,
1. I think Fr. Zenon is not repenting because he feels he is being asked to deny the validity or "grace-filled" character of Catholic mysteries. Fr. Zenon obviously believes that the Catholic Church is still "Church" and that it still has grace-filled mysteries. I guess this makes him a heretic, too.
Interestingly, Fr. Zenon is not alone in his ecumenical approach. Fr. Alexander Men, for example, was very critical of what he saw as sectarianism within the confines of the Russian Orthodox Church. But I guess he's also a heretic.
2. In light of your comments about communion, I guess that you fundamentally disagree with some of the writings of A. Schmemann and others in this regard about disconnecting the mysteries of Confession and Eucharist. I am well-aware that some of his ideas have not been fully implemented (and that many of his ideas are openly ridiculed by the ROCOR), but I don't think it's fair or accurate to characterize them as unserious.
Orientale
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
It is intresting that one man's Lew Gillet is another mans Fr Zenon. For your information Lew Gillet was a Latin Rite Catholic who became an Eastern Rite priest who concelebrated the Divine Liturgy with the Orthodox Metropolitian of Paris. I read somewhere that he did so without having to renounce any "Latin Beliefs" I am a little sketchy on the details if anyone of you could fill me in on them I would be appriciative. Thank You very much
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 780
Administrator Member
|
Administrator Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 780 |
Theodore,
I'm somewhat confused by your statement. Why should a Latin Catholic have to "renounce" Latin beliefs to become an "Eastern Rite" priest? I'm a Latin deacon who, at the request of the local Melkite priest, has become bi-rite with the permission of my bishop and the Melkite bishop. I have surrendered none of my "Latin beliefs" and I fully embrace the teachings and theology of the East -- even when they differ from my Latin beliefs. That is, I can adapt (sort of a "When in Rome..." approach). Is there something I'm missing?
[This message has been edited by FrDeaconEd (edited 09-03-1999).]
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 838 |
SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU! SLAVA NA VIKI BOHU!
Good Morning All
What I find interesting is that A. Zenon has moved to Italy and has founded a new school of iconography and has even published a book of his work and those of his students. I purchased several dozen copies for friends who are also iconographers, like myself, when I was at the Russicum last year.
I also understand that A.Zenon is going start a similiar school in France....
Interesting turn of events. What is the verse in Scripture about a prophet not being accepted in his own country....?
The least servant of the servants of God,
Ikon writer Mark
the ikon writer
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Orientale recently wrote:
1. I think Fr. Zenon is not repenting because he feels he is being asked to deny the validity or "grace-filled" character of Catholic mysteries. Fr. Zenon obviously believes that the Catholic Church is still "Church" and that it still has grace-filled mysteries. I guess this makes him a heretic, too.
Interestingly, Fr. Zenon is not alone in his ecumenical approach. Fr. Alexander Men, for example, was very critical of what he saw as sectarianism within the confines of the Russian Orthodox Church. But I guess he's also a heretic.
2. In light of your comments about communion, I guess that you fundamentally disagree with some of the writings of A. Schmemann and others in this regard about disconnecting the mysteries of Confession and Eucharist. I am well-aware that some of his ideas have not been fully implemented (and that many of his ideas are openly ridiculed by the ROCOR), but I don't think it's fair or accurate to characterize them as unserious.
Dear Orientale, I do not ascribe the word "heretic" lightly, and do not believe that I have employed it in my remarks concerning any of the above. Fr. Zenon should know the canons regarding inter-communion between Orthodox and Catholic. I believe he does know these rules but willfully chooses the path of disobedience to the Church and her canons. Interestingly, other cases of intercommunion have gained a sense of almost renown - I speak here of Soloviev and his legacy in this regards. But Soloviev also wasn't a priest, and a monk under obedience to boot. I have nothing more to say than Fr. Zenon's disobedience reminds me of Martin Luther's! As pertains to Fr. Men, I pray for him in my commemorations and I do not pray for heretics in that way (proskomedia). If I have a problem with Fr. Men it is that he did embrace many ideas and concepts which contradict a more grounded and sober Orthodox understanding of things. Were they heretical? Perhaps. Is the judgement therefore that the man was a heretic, I have no been informed of such, and considering that he is now reposed, best to pray for him and to respond openly to the good which he wrote and lived and to ignore his faults (this is my opinion, Fr. Men isn't a hot topic in ROCOR circles!)
As to Fr. Schememann, I have never been in a situation where I would say he was 'ridiculed'. "Criticized", yes, as all of us should in many ways be. Once again, theologians and other Orthodox have found weaknesses in some of the concepts which were embraced by Fr. Schememann, is that not alright? Must all the Orthodox agree with whatever theology comes from any and everybody?! The bottom line of course is, has any Orthodox Synod of Bishops made any of the concepts, ideas and wishes of Fr's Zenon, Men and Schememann a part and parcel of the Orthodox faith - must we believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are "mystically One" or that "communion was never completely broken"? The clear answer is, no. These may be things consigned to one's private opinion and hoped for in ones poor prayers but they are not a part of Orthodox teaching (teaching as a function and responsibility of the Bishops/Apostles). By the way, I still have all my books by the aforementioned authors. Haven't had the slightest inclination to throw them into the flames (unless of course we lose heat during Y2K and I have to make some sacrifices!).
In Christ, John
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,775
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,775 |
I know that I'm going to get in trouble for this, but since when have baptized Christians been permitted to abrogate the responsibility for their salvation to other human beings, including ecclesiastical ones?
There are priests in very many places who have concelebrated Eucharist with priests of other jurisdictions. Monastics who are visiting in communities other than their own have participated completely in liturgies. Ethnic hyphenated-Americans will worship with "their own" regardless of the jurisdiction of the celebrating priest.
I would really like to know where people get off telling another person that they cannot pray with other people because they aren't part of the 'saved' legitimate community. The bishops' role in the Church is to teach the Gospel of Christ, and guide the community in the love of God and the love of neighbor. The more 'administrative' aspects are really bureaucracy; and the primary job function of bureaucrats to to preserve and embellish the system-- i.e., a type of "mother may I" game.
Gov. Ventura's comments about organized religion being a crutch for the weak-minded is more than validated when supposedly adult mature people keep racing to ancient canon law texts to figure out what they ought to do in a given situation.
For heaven's sake, gird up your loins and go forth to be a witness to Christ's Gospel of love for God and TRUE concern for one's neighbor. And don't wait around for the bureaucracy to tell you it's OK. Remember that at the particular judgment, we each stand alone before the Judgment Seat of Christ. Without a Canon Lawyer.
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Glory to Jesus Christ!
I am reminded of the Anglican hymn that states:
"In Christ there is no East or West, In Him no South or North..."
What I'd personally like to see is beyond the lifting of the Anathemas (Done back in the '60's by Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras) is the Holy Father and the Ecumenical Patriarch celebrating the Eucharist together. I strongly suspect that at their level they understand the divisions between the Churches are relatively insignificant, in the grand scheme of things.
Just my $.02
Dunedain
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Unity must come, and the communion of all God's Church must be restored. (and soon!) It is a Gospel commandment, from the lips of our Savior! So it takes precedence over later canons and disciplines. If unity were impossible for us, Christ would not have commanded it.
Shall we wait for the heads of our Churches to agree and lead us in the restoration of unity? Maybe, but perhaps not, since they cannot even agree to visit each other's territory! (I am thinking of the inability of the Pope of Rome to visit Athens). Perhaps they are not free!
Anyone for a grass-roots movement? Shall we wait for the slowest and most cautious and fearful among us? Do we need a prophet, an Apostle, or maybe a holy fool, to show us true wisdom.
Elias, monk
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
>>>Anyone for a grass-roots movement? Shall we wait for the slowest and
most cautious and fearful among us? Do we need a prophet, an Apostle, or
maybe a holy fool, to show us true wisdom.<<<
I agree with Monk Elias. Like his namesake, Kyr Elias of Ba'albed, I believe the schism will ensure until such time as the People of God decide that it must end. The way to end our separation is for each of us to bear witness to our unity, and to act as though the separatiuon does not exist. Kyr Elias wisely observes that in the face of true spiritual communion, canonical communion is revealed as decidedly secondary, unimportant, and, as things presently stand, more of a hinderance to unity than an aid in its advancement.
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Greetings,
I truly believe that there is no schism within Orthodoxy as there is within catholicism. I am not naive as not to believe there is not jursdictional problems in the U.S. But Rome's universal jurisdiction and unholy tradition of being supreme and infallible must end. If the Pope apologizes for the errors of his predecessors and renounces their 8 to 21 so-called ecumenical councils, I will rejoice and honor the Pope as "First Amongst Equals". This is my sincere demand of justice for Apostolic communion. This may be humiliating at first but humility is the sign of the Cross. This humility would end Rome's separation from Orthodoxy, attract the Protestant and heterodox world to embrace the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and then we can truly call ourselves the sons of the Living God. There are no heretical doctrines within Orthodoxy that need to be renounced. Orthodoxy is not a religion of pride because we know what God does to the proud. As Jesus would preach and say, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". Catholicism does not need revision but renounciation in true humility. The evolution of Papal doctrines need to to stop evolving.
In Christ, Robert Sweiss
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Dear in Christ,
Father Elias....I heard you!
Foolishness (for Christ's sake) is a real scary podvig, and certainly and humanly a very lonely one; then then so is an episcopal throne!!
unworthy servant +Kyrill
|
|
|
|
|