www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Met. Kirill: No future for Russian Cath Ch.

There are chronic ROC-bashers. Demonizing the Russians is a longstanding habit in the West, from the Cold War on back. I remember a primary-school history teacher saying Russia always was the most backward nation of Europe. Since there was no Protestant revolt or "spirit of Vatican II' originating in Russia — Communism was a 19th-century German import — then perhaps there is something to be said for so-called backwardness.

Catholic proselytism in Russia does go on. Metropolitan Kyrill has a point. I've had runins with some offenders online (once got put on an unwanted mailing list after e-mailing one to complain). But I don't believe such is Catholic policy. I understand Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz in Moscow is a gentleman, scrupulously enforcing the policy of no proselytism of Orthodox (to the dismay of the few Russian Byzantine Catholic groups in Russia, who have no official standing as parishes). Aid to the Church in Need, AFAIK a conservative group, is an outstanding example of Catholics supporting the Orthodox Church's work in Russia.

Western Ukraine is a closed case — the Ukrainian Catholics took back what was theirs to begin with. Actually, considering the sentiment there now as opposed to the reality of Russian Ukraine elsewhere in that land, I think it would make sense for the old area of Ruthenia* to break off and form its own Ukrainian/Rusyn-speaking, Ukrainian Catholic–majority country (name?) while the rest of Ukraine can stand together with Russia and Belarus. Три России, один народ, один Русь. Just my two kopecks.

A former friend, a Roman Catholic, once observed that Catholic/Orthodox cultures have incredible holiness and incredible evil side by side — they are passionate, they are dangerous — while Protestant cultures even this out into a lukewarmness or mediocrity. Such explains Latin American injustice and the paradoxes of Italy (home of the Pope and of the Mafia) and the explanation seems to fit Russia (home of Ivan the Terrible and today's brutal criminals, but also of St Seraphim of Sarov) like a glove. I'm not sure the glove fits Catholic Ireland — it seems like a middling northern European country without the extreme evils of southern and eastern Europe.

*Exactly the area under Austrian and later Polish control, for centuries cut off from Rus' and never under Russian rule for long. 100 years ago people there identified as Russian but not now, which is entirely understandable. They are unlike the rest of Ukraine (including Kiev/Kyiv), which was an integral part of the Russian Empire almost as long as there have been English settlers in North America.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Reader Sergius,

(Could I ask you to bless me, like I've been asking Deacons here? Would you bless me anyway?)

There are books in Ukrainian written on the subject of a Greek Catholic Galicia independent of the rest of Ukraine.

Sometimes, the suggestion is made that Galicia be a constitutional monarchy etc.

I have nothing against the "Tryekh Russiey" notion, as long as Ukraine is independent as a nation etc.

The passion you mention in our Eastern Slavic history (and blood) is what keeps me coming back for more in terms of our heritage.

Whether good or bad, I think much can be forgiven a passionate person who loves life from the heart and stomach, who prays and loves with great feeling and is otherwise demonstrative in his or her affection to others.

I know our dearest and sweetest friend, Brendan, is for an American-style model of the Church (am I wrong?), but I just could never get used to eating sandwiches with too much mayonnaise . . .

And never mind about the bashing.

We children of Rus' stand together!!

Alex

Serge,

No offense, my friend, but you seem to push the idea that Ukrainian is the same as Rusyn, which it is not. Your idea of dividing Ukraine up with there being a Russian-oriented faction on one side and a Ukrainian/Ruthenian faction on the other just wouldn't work, and why should we even need to divide up Ukraine thus? Why does Ukraine need to be "part" of Russia?

Rusyn/Ruthenian is one language/ethnic group, Ukrainian is a second, and Russian a third. As such, they should be three separate states.

anastasios

Dmitri, good to go.

Brendan, so what if the Protestants go into Latin America, if Catholicism is what we profess it to be then what so much do we have to fear? And anyways if you are Protestant then serve the Protestant cause as best you can. If you get to know me you will discover I acknowledge the rightfullness of Muslims to serve the Islamic cause as best they can, and to convert as many to what they profess in all heart to be the truth and will of Allah. I have no problem with this sort of invisible tension in religion. In some ways it can work for the good in thininng out the weak blood. Why not let people choose the path they will - or is this not a Orthodox virtue? And my only implication for the universality of Latin... is that it encompasses so broad a spectrum of various ethnic groups and culture. Why? Can this be said of the Russian Orthodox Church? I suppose if I'm Hutu the Russian culture or Ethopian culture should sreve enough for me... especialy since my culture and ethnic group would be inferior to them. But the Latin? Well the Latin bends - so in the hope that all may be one. By the way the Coptics have expressed a desire to spread furthur into North America and Latin America - the Pope in Rome has given his blessings.

Serge, Russia lends it' self to the image the West has of it. And it's Church is backward. Many Westerners don't have to high a views of African governments - but guess what... that's because most African governments are screwed up.

OC, You maybe right the Catholic Western world by-in-large might not have faired as well? But then... the Catholic Church isn't reknown for being the yes-men of the Communist governments.

Dustin --

If it's true that a majority of Ukranians are Russophone, would this have an impact on your analysis?

Maximus --

It's my understanding that the Catholic Church does *not*, in fact, propose this "head-to-head" competition type of approach -- for good reason, as it would seem to go against the Catholic understanding of the Church.

The Russian Orthodox Church is no more universal than the French Catholic Church is. However, Byzantine Christianity, of which the Russian Orthodox Church is a local expression, is universal to the same degree as Latin Christianity, of which the French Catholic Church is an expression. And the Russians, for their part, conducted missions across Central Asia, China, Japan and Alaska -- quite a respectable record, as they were the only Orthodox country with anything close to the means and ability to conduct this kind of missionary work during that period. Presently, Orthodoxy has many missions in Sub-Saharan Africa as well -- conducted principally by the Patriarchate of Alexandria. Last year, there were a few seminarians from Africa at Holy Cross GO Seminary in Boston. Again, Byzantine Christianity is just as universal as Latin Christianity is -- it is just different.

Brendan

Dear Maximus,

I don't know who you are, but, darn it, you make good points!!

You must have been the champion debater in school!

After a terrible period of persecution by the communists, the Russian Church was barely alive and suffered more from that demonic crew than any other.

The Underground Russian Church refused to "be in the red" and work with the commies, the Sergianists (this is NOT Reader Sergius' Fan Club) agreed to cooperate with the government.

During the Nazi era, His Holiness the uncanonized saint Pope Pius XII opposed Nazism in quiet and he saved many, many people in so doing (my father belonged to one of his underground organizations and was sworn to secrecy for 25 years following the war).

But there were Catholic clerics who, although they didn't have to, did collaborate with the Nazis as they agreed with aspects of their philosophy etc.

And the Russian Church was heavily persecuted.

I have a cousin who came from an Eastern Catholic family that formally became Russian Orthodox to avoid problems.

He was a ROC priest with a doctorate in theology from Moscow. Today, he is back in the Church of his ancestors, the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Did he and so many like him do wrong?

I don't believe so and I say so not only because I'm related to a number of them.

These above ground priests, although acquiescing to political realities for a time, are the ones who brought back the Eastern Catholic Church in western Ukraine, not the revered and martyred Underground Church.

And the Russian Orthodox Church for all the accusations of collaboration with the KGB has resurrected whole and in tact.

Yes, the Russian Church is very patriotic and very "Russian."

And so it should be!

And so is the Polish RC Church! In terms of patriotism, the only difference between the Russians and the Poles is that the latter owe allegiance to the First Rome and the former to the Third Rome! (To quote His Holiness.)

In any event, His Holiness sets a great example for all Catholics, no matter how biased against the Orthodox (not that you are, but if you are, you are).

The Pope has tried to enter into the heart of Russian Orthodox spirituality and he has found Christ enthroned there.

Alex

What is the definition of proselytizing? It seems that any action that any faith community takes to spread its teaching can be construed as proselytizing by the other faith community who is losing followers. Maybe instead of accusing the other faith communities of trying to steal your members, the first faith community could reflect in prayer as to why its members are leaving (like maybe they see a diacotamy between what we talk and the way we walk or maybe we have been trying to water down the hard sayings of the Gospel) and increase its activities in that direction to combat it, like maybe to have some educational programs and prayer programs. Or just falling on our faces in prayer before God to ask Him His forgivness and to help us in the process of continual conversion.
Yours in Christ
Theodore Perkoski

Yours in Christ
Theodore Perkoski

Dear Theodore,

In all charity, I do think the Moscow Patriarchate is crying wolf a bit too much on the subject of the "activities of the uniates."

Patriarch Lubomyr is a reasonable man. You don't have to be Catholic to agree with this one.

And he has asked the MP to produce cases in point about the charges of proselytism with which the MP's communications about Rome are punctuated.

Even one case . . .

And he said he would make a public examination of it, which few can doubt that he would.

And despite the best efforts of Russian Orthodox, Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholics, there are many who feel attracted to "try something new" by not only joining the RC Church, but also the evangelical groups and I've heard of Hare Krishna converts in schools in Ukraine.

Is there proselytism involving trying to convince people to join other religious communities? Of course there is! Is there sensitivity about it? Yup!

But there is also the matter that is often overlooked involving a largely "unchurched" people for whom the distinctions among the Churches and religions are rather blurred. Just like one shops for different brands of soups, so too there is much to choose from when it comes to religion . . .

Alex

Brendan, I don't know how much I agree with some of your points or at least the direction their going. But this much I do agree with - that Byzantine Christianity is universal. And I don't think that the Byzantine Christianity needs to be the same expression as the Latin Church. I guess the direction I was giong with my comment regarding the Latin Church having that current elememt of universality, as it were, was that the current situation of the Latin Church, although maybe flawed in some ways, is a sincere attempt to fullfil it's universal nature by reaching out and bending as it needs to. And that any trend such as the Russian Orthodox seem to express by closing it's self in seems to me to betray it's profession of being catholic. Now I'm fine with the Russians keeping their cultural identity in their Church but for God sake they could put forth better effort in dialoge.

Orthodox C, I continue to learn. You just taught me something about history, I didn't know these secret societies existed. I would love to knoe more! You must be very proud and delighted to have a blood relation who served with courage and honor in such a outfit. Not to trivialize Jewish suffering, but these things I find kind of romantic in a proper sort of perspective if there is one?

It seems I have heard of Orthodox missions in traditionally Latin Catholic countries such as Mexico...maybe Rome should petition Moscow that they do what they can to stop prostelization of Roman Catholics...even if they are only nominally RC???? Just a thought.

Don

Dear Maximus,

Yes, in the midst of such terrible suffering, the Catholic Church was there doing what it could. It could have done more, but that could be said of anyone.

CARITAS was the outfit my dad belonged to and it is truly a great organization that continues to work its good even today.

When dad died, we got letters of condolence from Israel and that is when I got a clearer picture of what he was involved in during the war.

In terms of your points to Brendan, I think what you say is generally very true.

However, if you will permit me an observation, the "universal" role that the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches played was with their own nationalities, protecting their people, serving them and helping them stand upright when they were beaten down.

The Orthodox Church is a Church of the oppressed and that goes for the Oriental Churches as well.

Survival of the Church is still a priority and will be for some time as the Churches "over there" find their feet once again.

To be fair to the Russian Orthodox Church, if you will permit me another point, prior to the soviet revolution, it was a very mission-minded Church.

St Theophilus Leschynsky established no fewer than 1168 churches and chapels all over Siberia, bringing the Gospel and the Church to the Siberian tribes.

St John Maximovych of Tobolsk, St Sophrony Krystalsky of Irkutsk, St Paul Koniuskevych of Tobolsk, St Innocent Kulchitsky of Siberia and many others ended their lives as missionaries among the trackless wastes of Siberia.

They produced many Siberian fruits of holiness, local saints who have been glorified as miracle-workers and martyrs by the Church. One such saint is St Basil of Mangazea, a Siberian tribal boy whose cult St Theophilus brought to Kyiv and had his icon installed in the Church of St Vladimir there!

One such Orthodox missionary successfully brought the Nestorians or Assyrians into the Chalcedonian communion with Orthodoxy and these were called Assyrian Orthodox with their own Rite.

St Innocent, St Herman and St Jacob Netsvetov of Alaska brought Christianity to North America and the Aleutian peoples off the coast of Alaska.

St John Maximovych of Shanghai (descendant of the above Siberian Father) established Churches in Peking and Shanghai, used the Chinese Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and then established the Church in California.

This saint (to whose Cathedral Natalie Wood left a good sum of money) also went West and established the French and Netherlands Orthodox Churches, and ordained the first Spanish Orthodox priest. He translated some Western liturgies for use by the Orthodox Church and he particularly liked the Gallican Liturgy. He also brought back to the Orthodox Calendar the names of many Western, Pre-Schism saints.

The French Catholics called him, "St John the bare-foot" since he often walked barefoot and carried a large icon of the MOther of God slung over his neck.

When he was canonized an Orthodox Saint, Churches and peoples sang his service in more than twenty languages around the world at more or less the same time.

I heard of an Episcopalian Church in your Grand Republic that applied to adopt St John of Shanghai as their patronal Saint for their parish!

St John established an orphanage for Russian, Ukrainian and Chinese orphans in the Phillipines. When the war broke out, he took his orphans, his adopted children, to San Francisco.

When he was canonized a saint a few years back, these same orphans, grown up now, carried his Saint's Ark or reliquary up from the basement of his Cathedral to the Church.

He did not sleep in a bed for 40 years of his life and the oil burning above his shrine has healed thousands, including a friend's daughter who anointed her with it.

Let's see, have I missed anything? I don't remember . . .

Is the Orthodox Church universal or catholic? With a capital "C!"

Alex

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

"It seems I have heard of Orthodox missions in traditionally Latin Catholic countries such as Mexico"

Nope. The OCA Exarchate in Mexico has an interesting history, but it's not one of proselytism.

The roots of the OCA's present, small, Mexican Exarchate go back to the time of the Mexican Revolution -- at that time, the RCC closed the nation's churches, for a time, in protest against the revolutionary government. At that time an Old Catholic body was formed -- and a small remenant of this survived after the Roman Catholic Church made peace with the new Mexican Government in the 1930s. Subsequently, this Old Catholic body petitioned the Metropolia -- eventually the OCA -- to become Orthodox, and eventually did become Orthodox. Prior to that, the OCA had no presence in Mexico, and certainly was not proselytizing among Mexican Roman Catholics.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Your post is fine, but what do you think of my recent one here?

Do I make a point?

Alex

"is a sincere attempt to fullfil it's universal nature by reaching out and bending as it needs to."

As does Orthodoxy. It seems to me that the lens you are using is not the same -- you seem to be comparing the worldwide experience of Catholicism with the national expression in one country of Orthodoxy. That kind of comparison can lead to misunderstandings, ISTM.

The Russian Orthodox Church is just that --- the *Russian* Church -- just as the Italian Catholic Church is the *Italian* Catholic Church (and is nowhere near as "flexible" or "culturally diverse" as the American RCC, for example). The American RCC has done what it thinks is prudent in order to be the Latin Church in North America -- and Orthodoxy has done the same here as well, displaying "flexibility" in numerous ways that may not be obvious to a non-Byzantine Christian.

"And that any trend such as the Russian Orthodox seem to express by closing it's self"

I just don't see it that way. How is it "closing itself"? The opposition to a papal visit is not about "closing itself", but rather is an expression of a dispute between Rome and Moscow. At this point, we may disagree with the MP about its reaction to that dispute (and I'd rather not start that conversation again), but I think that this dispute is, in any case, at the heart of the matter, and not a sense of "closing itself".

"Now I'm fine with the Russians keeping their cultural identity in their Church but for God sake they could put forth better effort in dialoge"

I agree that a better effort must be made in terms of presenting the case. The MP could use a crash course in public relations, pretty clearly, because it is getting its *&%^ kicked by the Vatican in this respect. Whatever one thinks about the Vatican, one must admit that it is quite organized and media savvy -- and that's not necessarily a bad thing, given the current state of affairs in the world.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

Are you ignoring me on purpose?

What do you think about my post, come on, Friend!

Alex