The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Fr. Abraham, AnonymousMan115, violet7488, HopefulOlivia, Quid Est Veritas
6,181 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (AnonymousMan115, Fr. Abraham), 1,864 guests, and 129 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,526
Posts417,648
Members6,181
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A little off topic... but what are the Eastern traditions in regards to burial at sea?

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
Back in the late fifties there was a Catholic bookshop - in Rhode Island, I think - that did considerable business in utterly plain pine coffins, for those who did not care to be caught dead in one of those ridiculous plush caskets - you could buy the plain pine coffin in advance and use it for storing this and that. The only catch was that you had to make well sure that your next-of-kin knew your wishes and would abide by them.

As to cremation: earth burial is preferable (without embalming, hermetically sealed caskets, or similar pretentious foolishness, please), but it sometimes happens that cremation is the more sensible alternative - if, for example, the body would otherwise have to be shipped across international boundaries, which is hugely expensive. It can also happen that such arrangements are made before the priest is brought into the discussion - I was once startled in Toronto to find myself called upon to do the funeral of the ashes of a young man, a convert to Catholicism, who had died in a freak bicycle accident in the Caribbean and whose parents (who were of no particular religion) had had his body cremated and the ashes brought back to Toronto. Having no alternative, I served the funeral.

Permit me to recommend Jessica Mitford's excellent book The American Way of Death - it was published more than forty years ago, but it's still well worth reading as well as horrifying.

Fr. Serge

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 74
O
Member
Member
O Offline
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 74
Father George Brooks of the All Saints of America Orthodox Mission [allsaintsofamerica.com] in DeQueen, Arkansas, makes the old-style pine coffins, but with Orthodox modifications.

The coffins [stmarksworkshop.com] come with a three-bar cross and Trisagion Prayer on the outside.


Father George also makes other wooden items for home and church use; according to the St. Mark's Workshop [stmarksworkshop.com] web site, he built the mission's church by hand!

Until one is ready to use the coffin for burial, it can also be used to display icons or store books.






Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by Orthodox in Kansas
Father George Brooks of the All Saints of America Orthodox Mission [allsaintsofamerica.com] in DeQueen, Arkansas, makes the old-style pine coffins, but with Orthodox modifications.

Until one is ready to use the coffin for burial, it can also be used to display icons or store books.


There was a book I saw at Barnes & Noble once... "Building your own casket" A how-to book. One design - with the addition of four small removable legs was meant for use as a coffee table "in the mean time".

Maybe that would be a good reminder of last things to have our coffin in the living room? Maybe not for everyone...

- Simple

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
I knew a priest who had his coffin pre-made. He had his made to double as a bookshelf till it was time for use. He was one of the holiest and happiest priests I ever knew.

-- John

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by harmon3110
I knew a priest who had his coffin pre-made. He had his made to double as a bookshelf till it was time for use. He was one of the holiest and happiest priests I ever knew.

-- John


Is it evil of me to think that a well designed one might also make a mighty nice liquor cabinet?

It probably is.

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
R
Member
Member
R Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
My understanding is that cremation was traditionally forbidden, and became allowed under Pope Paul VI in the 1960s. This has been a sore point for Traditionalist Roman Latin Catholics. The following was recently printed by The Remnant, a traditionalist Catholic publication:



From her very beginning, the Church condemned cremation and had only one funeral rite: burial. This practice was based on religious reasons, and was in direct opposition to the practices of the pagan world. Even when the pagans, as a sign of their contempt for the Christian rites, burned the bodies of the martyrs and violated the graves in Christian cemeteries, the Church held firmly to the rite of burial, and propagated it everywhere she went. So much so, that by the end of the 4th century burial had replaced cremation in the whole Roman Empire.

When sometime after the year 1000 A.D. a practice bearing certain resemblances to cremation took hold in Europe, Pope Boniface VIII, in his letter Detestandae Feritatis (1299), condemned the practice as �abominable� in the sight of God and men and imposed automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication on all who chose such a procedure and on all who practiced it, and deprived of a Catholic funeral the body that had been submitted to this procedure.

For centuries after this there were no further abuses and the Church consequently had no need to speak out.

In the wake of the French Revolution (1789) there was launched a campaign in favor of cremation, which campaign was supported, if not planned and directed, by the Freemasons for openly anti-Christian reasons: cremation of the body stood for the complete annihilation of the human person at death and thus, for �freedom� from the traditional teaching of the Church with regard to the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

Once again, the Church reacted immediately and decisively to defend the Christian tradition of burial. Several condemnations were issued by the Holy Office � May 19, 1886; December 15,1886; July 27, 1892; August 3, 1897 � which all spoke of cremation as a �detestable abuse�, and imposed heavy penalties on all who chose to be cremated, as also on those who executed their wishes, forbidding them the sacraments, Christian burial, etc�

In 1917 the Code of Canon Law, signed by Pope Benedict XV, codified the Catholic tradition of burial and the severe sanctions incurred by those who broke with this tradition. It prescribed burial, forbade cremation, and declared null and void the will of a Christian who asked to be cremated (Can. 1203, #1), depriving such a one of a Church burial and of all memorial Masses, even on the anniversary of Death (Can. 1241).

In 1926 an instruction from the Holy Office warned against a resurgence of the practice of cremation, confirmed the doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding burial and renewed the decrees of 1886. One of these degrees � May 19, 1886 � had defined burial as �the constant practice, consecrated by the solemn rites of the Church.�

The first break with this uninterrupted tradition, which the Church had defended with severe sanction down through the centuries, came under Pope Paul VI, and was one of the first acts of his pontificate. On July 15, 1963, an instruction from the Holy Office �while retaining these condemnations in cases where cremation was inspired by anti-Catholic or anti-religious motives, no longer requires that they be applied in other cases, presuming that recourse could be had to cremation for upright reasons, having nothing to do with anti-dogmatic or anti-Christian feeling�.

However, it is clear from the history of this question, that the �anti-dogmatic� or �anti-Christian� reasons for cremation in modern times were but secondary and transient motives for its ecclesiastical interdiction. At the time when Boniface VIII intervened with Destestandae Feritatis, the practice resembling cremation to which the body of St. Louis had been subjected, did not spring from any anti-Christian mentality, but was had recourse to for �upright� reasons, namely, the desire to find a more practical way of transporting the mortal remains of important personages. Nevertheless, the Church intervened with a rigorous reminder of her condemnation of cremation. Furthermore, the third decree from the Holy Office, July 27, 1892, against the cremationist campaign of the Freemasons, declared ��unworthy of the Last Sacraments those who arrange for the cremation of their body for irreligious reasons, as well as those who do so for reasons of another order�.

The principal and enduring reasons for which the Church has always condemned cremation are the following:

1. Dogmatic

a) Burial is more in line with the dogma of the resurrection of the body than is cremation. By the word �dormition�, the Church expresses the truth that death is only the temporary annihilation of the body, and the cemetery is the holy ground where she lays the bodies of the faithful departed, like mortal seeds that will grow up into immortality.� ��sown in corruption, it will rise in incorruption.� (1 Cor.Ch. 15: 42)

b) Burial, unlike cremation, expresses the mystical union of the Christian with Christ, making him like his Head even in the grave, �the first fruits of them that sleep� (ICor., Ch 15 v. 29), like Him Whose Body was laid in the sepulcher and not cremated.

c) Burial shows more respect for the human body than does its violent destruction by fire. The Church teaches that such respect is due to the human body, which was created by God in a very special way (Gen. Ch. 1 v. 26), which is an essential component of the human person, and which was assumed by the Divine Word in order to accomplish the redemption and to be seated at the right hand of the Father; this body which is sanctified by baptism, nourished by the Eucharist, vivified by a soul in the state of grace, and destined for resurrection.

2. Moral

a) Burial, which allows nature to pursue its slow and hidden work of destruction, either in the earth or in the tomb, shows more respect for the higher feelings of men than does cremation. Cremation bespeaks a practical utilitarianism, while burial takes into account the affection that men have for the mortal remains of their loved ones, their natural inclination to show respect for the dead and also the consequent repugnance they feel for cremation.

b) Again, cremation, unlike burial, could make it impossible to prove a crime or, worse still, to clear an innocent person of a false accusation.

3 Traditional

Everywhere that Christianity took root, the practice of burial took root with it. It would be difficult to explain this fact which, in so many places, was in direct opposition to local custom and often resulted in persecution for the Christians and profanations of their cemeteries, except by a formal law of the early Church. We can only conclude with St. Augustine that this universal practice was a law that dated back to the Apostles themselves and that it was they who established it in the Church from its very beginning.

Even if it is true that burial is not prescribed by the Law of God, but falls under Church law, it is equally true that it is not, as Paul VI saw it, a simple administrative provision, dictated by circumstances of a transitory nature and subject to cancellation when no longer opportune. On the contrary, it is a liturgical rite, consecrated by tradition, and based on motives of a dogmatic and moral nature which remain valid, regardless of circumstances and the spirit behind the preference for cremation.

The Instruction on cremation was one of the first acts of Pope Paul VI, and it expressed the whole spirit and practice of disdain for Tradition which was to characterize his pontificate. After this first bastion, other far more important ones, erected by the Church to protect Her divine and ecclesial Tradition, fell under the blows of his unconscious (let us hope) want of reverence for the legacy of the past.

What should one do? In the present storm, which is ripping the Church apart, and which unfortunately has its origins in high places, it is imperative that every Catholic get to know the sacred Traditions of the Church, especially divinely inspired apostolic Tradition, in order to love it, defend it and keep it.

The Church of Christ, supernatural in origin and protected by divine, indefectible assistance, though shaken, though abused and betrayed by Her priests, can never lose the memory of Her Tradition and, sooner or later � this is of Faith � will reaffirm its rights, in the process allowing to disintegrate all that has been imposed upon Her by Her unfaithful ministers.

It is in order to hasten this happy day, as well as to ensure their salvation, that all faithful members of the Church and those who, at least, wish to be such, must go to the sources of Tradition, that is, to the teachings of the Magisterium � implicit, explicit and tacit � of the pre-conciliar Church (encyclicals, liturgy, treatises, catechisms, lives and writings of the saints, etc.), and there nourish their minds and spirits. It is from cells that have remained in good health, or that have recovered their health, that God�s Holy Church will wax strong again.

All of which includes saying �No� to cremation.

(Summary and translation of an article in Courrier de Rome April 1990. Translated by Sr. Maureen Peckham RSC)


Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
Originally Posted by harmon3110
I knew a priest who had his coffin pre-made. He had his made to double as a bookshelf till it was time for use. He was one of the holiest and happiest priests I ever knew.

-- John


Is it evil of me to think that a well designed one might also make a mighty nice liquor cabinet?

It probably is.


Or maybe just being practical . . . grin

-- John


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,352
Likes: 99
Moderator
Member
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,352
Likes: 99
John:

I'll date myself here quickly. There was a series of books entitled The Foxfire Book--1 to 5--pulbished when I was in university. They were supposed to contain instructions for the person who wanted to simplify his life and included all sorts of interesting topics--I believe one of which was how to build one's own coffin and make it serve another purpose until needed. If one looks hard enough, one might be able to find them in a used book store.

I've been given the task of researching some alternatives for burial that will allow for a more "green" approach while complying with cemetery requirements for caveproof containers for human burials. There are some interesting ways to go about this; it's just a matter of people actually doing what they think they want.

BOB

Last edited by theophan; 08/28/07 02:10 PM.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Bob,

I remember the Foxfire books !!! smile They came out when my brothers were going to high school and college, and they used to read them !!! I think used copies can still be found on Amazon, etc.

I like the idea of pre-making a coffin and making it useful in the meantime. The priest I mentioned --eternal memory-- not only used his as a bookshelf. It also served as one heck of a conversation starter on the topics of life after death, the brevity and preciousness of life, getting ready for our own death, how seriously we take our faith, and so on. And, again, this was one of the holiest and happiest priests I ever met. His attitude was, basically, we're getting ready to be with Jesus forever -- and he was joyful about that. And he wasn't escapist either. He used to emphasize that we get ready for Him by how we receive Him and serve Him now: directly and in the neighbor. And was so happy about that . . . and that in itself was such a testimony. Hence, the coffin/bookshelf was not morbid but instead infused with his message and joy.

-- John


Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,352
Likes: 99
Moderator
Member
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,352
Likes: 99
John:

Well, premaking your own coffin might be good for some people, but it can definitely be a put-off for others. Again, even in the same family it can cause people to withdraw. There would be some people who would definitely be "spooked" by coming into a home with a coffin standing on end in the living room.

OTOH, there have been some rather different renderings that have been used as blanket chests--made of genuine cedar.

The thing to consider is how one gets it to the funeral home at the time of someone's death. Because of liability issues, the funeral director may be reticent to move it to his premises. What if it falls apart because it's been around too long--seen that happen. There are those who are genuine craftsmen who can turn out a good vehicle, but there are many more "do-it-yourselfers" who leave a bit to be desired.

BTW, there is now a company making "Old West" style coffins. Seen their ad in the trade journal. I also took a look at the offerings mentioned above and the coffin looked very impressive as an expression of faith.

BOB

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
There is a Roman order of monks that has a tradition - or at least had one - of seweing the hood and sleeves of a monks habit shut and burying him just so. That always appealed to me for some reason.

As to the idea of spooking family members, some of the caskets I saw looked rather inconspicuous as a coffee table or book shelf or perhaps (my fav option) a liqour cabinet. Folks opting to go that route might have family members see these for years and not realize what they were until they pay their respects at the veiwing and put 2 + 2 together! (Or go to visit the home, and wonder where the cool coffee table went.)

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,045
Member
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,045
and that way is more ecologically correct. the order shows a good Christian stewardship for GOD's Creation.
Much Love,
Jonn

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 641
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 641
I believe Roman Catholics may choose to be cremated and newer Catholic cemeteries offer Columbarium type arrangements.

Not to be depressing, but this is one of those issues that you want to take up way in advance of needing to worry about it and that you want to remember to include in your estate planning documents. Especially if there is any question about what you might have wanted.

I am very disturbed that one of my friend's parent's ashes are sitting in a funeral home. For two years. The parent left no instructions, everyone recalls hearing different things, no one wants to act. They are just paying to store the ashes. They at least think he said he wanted to be cremated. Of course, I am cringing because I know Jewish people (as they are) do not generally believe in cremation and do believe in quick burials.

If you care about how they package you up with dignity for your final journey, then it's a darned good idea to make clear what you want in your will and the associated instructions.

Last edited by Annie_SFO; 09/07/07 01:31 PM. Reason: incorrect spelling
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0