www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Monastery icons what to do?

Bill,

Why even go toward creating an icon of it? Why not be satisfied with the Sacred Heart in statue form, as well as in two-dimensional pictured form? If these enhance your prayer life, that should be good enough for devotion, shouldn't it?

Well according to my wife�s grandfather who studied theology in Volyna, Ukraine, the main Orthodox argument against veneration of the Catholic Sacred Heart centres around the idea that the Sacred Heart is influenced by cyprto-nestorianism, that is it overemphasizes the humanity of Christ.

It is believed that the 5th Ecumenical Council admonishes Orthodox Christians to direct their veneration and worship of Christ to Christ as a whole and not to separate parts of His being. It is believed that there is something unnatural in separating the heart from the general bodily nature of Christ.

There is also this well known quote (at least in Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox circles) about the late Metr. Antoni Kraphovitsky in a discussion with the late Metr. A. Sheptytsky.

�Several times at the outset of his activity in the See of Volyn�, Vladika Anthony exchanged correspondence with the �Metropolitam of Lvov (sic), Count Andrei Sheptytsky. In one of his letters, the �metropolitan wrote that he was then occupied with the introduction of veneration to the �Sacred Heart of Jesus� among the Galicians�When Vladika took exception to this Catholic devotion, the �metropolitan asked: �Really, how can one possibly object to the veneration of the Sacred Heart, when our Lord Jesus Christ suffered for us with His heart , and when His heart suffered most of all, throbbing with pain?� To this Vladika replied that during Christ�s sufferings, as is well know, He experienced much pain, not only in his heart, but in other internal organs of His body, as for example, the liver, the kidneys, etc. It would then follow that one could venerate these other internal organs as well �To this remark there was no response.�
p. 26, Orthodox Life, No. 4, 1979

Should a devotion to the sacred kidney arise, sign me up. I would kiss the footprints.

Some things can be reasonably accepted as "local variation" can't they?

Just to return for a moment to the original topic of this thread (a novel thought, I know), someone recently quoted elsewhere an e-mail posted to the phatmass site. In it, someone at Sacred Arts Foundation disavowed any connection between Monastery Arts of old and its present incarnation, pointing to the "purchase" by SAF of all interests in MI. The individual who brought this to my attention also reiterated the point, brought up previously (here, I think) that SAF/MI uses an OH address. So, I went back to research further.

OH is the location of their PO Box - effectively an order fulfillment site. As I mentioned previously, businesses are not uncommonly incorporated in states other than the one in which they principally do business. (As an example, thousands of businesses are incorporated in tiny Delaware solely because that state has statutes which are particularly favorable to corporations them. The vast majority of those firms do not have a physical presence in Delaware nor are they required to do so, provided that they have a registered agent there - an individual who agrees to accept legal service on their behalf.) In this instance, corporation fees in Missouri are dirt cheap, making it a good place in which to incorporate.

As I already pointed out, the named directors of the SAF in the Missouri corporate filings are the same persons affiliated with the former MI and the address in CA for SAF in those filings is identical to that for George Burke's temple, ashram, whatever. It's unrealistic to think that, if a business called SAF bought MI, that MI's former owners would then incorporate a business that they would name SAF. And, if they did, and you were SAF, would you not immediately drag them to court for some type of trademark infringement?

But, on to new info - a search of the records of the Ohio Secretary of State's Office for documentation as to "foreign corporations" - those doing business in the state, but incorporated elsewhere. That search produces Sacred Arts Foundation [www2.sos.state.oh.us], a Missouri corporation, with the California address reported previously (showing Monastery Icons as its California name), and a registered agent in OH for purposes of its business functions there.

The records of the California Secretary of State's Office also confirm that a Missouri corporation known as Sacred Arts Foundation does business in CA, from the same address. The search results url will not return from a link - but you can replicate my search by going to California Business Search [kepler.ss.ca.gov] - entering Sacred Arts Foundation in the search box and clicking the resulting link for Sacred Arts Foundation (the one showing John Weber as its registered agent for process).

Many years,

Neil

I can understand the reluctance, even the abhorrence, to the cult of the body parts of Jesus. I've always thought it strange and unsettling that people make prayers "through the wounds of your left foot" or some such thing. Devotion to a body part? EGADS!

However, I have always taken the devotion to the Sacred Heart as an exception for the reason that the heart, in spiritual/biblical language refers primarily to the center of ones being, not to his physical heart, which is only a symbol of it. Furthermore, the fact that the sacred Heart images are stylized hearts and not anatomically correct drawings reinforces this position, imo.

I would have as much trouble as anyone having a special devotion to an "icon" of an anatomically correct heart, complete with valves, arteries and the like. What I mean is, I think it's gross.

However...and I want to be tactful here so please know that I am trying not to upset anyone...Since we believe that we are nourished by the literal physical body and blood of the Savior through manducation, why is it a theological problem to have devotion to the body of the Lord? Seriously, think about it. We have no problem talking about putting the actual flesh and blood of Jesus in our mouths but we rage when someone draws a picture of his heart?

Crypto-nestorianism? I don't think so. The only way one can "over-emphasize" the humanity of Christ is by denying his full divinity. To me this simply sounds like an eastern suspicion of anything western and an attempt to give credence to that suspicion by labeling it with a theological name.

Jason

WHAT??????????????????????????

Much Love,
Jonn

he's entirely serious. i have seen, in the Pieta prayerbook, a prayer to the left shoulder wound of Christ.

The prayer of the Church venerates and honors the Heart of Jesus just as it invokes his most holy name. It adores the incarnate Word and his Heart which, out of love for men, he allowed to be pierced by our sins. Christian prayer loves to follow the way of the cross in the Savior's steps.-- From the Catechism. P: 2669

With this, I will also link a beautiful Latin icon, which is not offensive at all.

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/heart/sh_novena.htm

People can like or not like a particular icon, but they have no right to speak uncharitably about our Lord, and devotions to him!

I would also like to remind all that Saint Padre Pio recited the Novena to the Sacred Heart every day for all those who requested his prayers.

Therefore, I would like everyone to stop ALL *inappropriate* and *offensive* remarks about this devotion of our Latin brethren to our LORD Jesus Christ!

IF this topic continues with even one more post on the Sacred Heart of Jesus, it will be closed. Some of our Latin brethren here have been deeply offended and wounded by this thread. The devotion to and the title of the 'Sacred Heart' is very common in the Roman Catholic Church, with many having attended churches and schools named for it..(including my daughter, and I knew that she was in good hands because of it)!

So-- consider this a warning for keeping the thread open!

May our Lord's sacred and holy heart of love and compassion have mercy on us all!

Alice, Moderator

Dear Alice,

You are a truly remarkable person and you really do MAKE this forum the wonderful place it is!

Alex

I do not object to the veneration of the Sacred Heart, nor should anyone else, in my opinion, since all of us venerate the bodies of the holy saints - whether whole or in part!

The Apostolic Father of my Church, St. Thomas, is located in three places - I am sure that he is not whole in any of the three.

What I object to is the iconographic representation of the Sacred Heart, as iconography follows certain rules - of course the rules vary depending on the type - Copts, Byzantines, Syriacs, Ethiopians, even Latins etc. have different styles and patterns. If the Latin Church were to have the Sacred Heart represented in painted form or statuary I'd say 'great'!
It should be noted that within homes of Indian Christians, both Orthodox and Catholic, the image of Christ and His Mother with their hearts depicted is very common and highly honoured.

Dear Michael,

Well, point taken.

However, in the Benedictine biritual monastery at Chevetogne, the Latin Church there is simply covered with . . . icons.

Western icons and no "pictures" in accordance with the Latin tradition of the first millennium - quite beautiful.

The problem with contemporary RC art is that it can be really, well, overly saccharine and "cloyingly sweet."

There is no question that the "icon" we are discussing is really not an icon, but a stylized picture.

It is much better as a representation of you-know-what (you see, unlike others, I obey Alice when she sets down a rule! ) and I can see many RC's preferring that kind of depiction to others (in fact, it is very popular among my Latin friends - none of whom actually understand Latin, mind you . . .)

In the Greek tradition, the heart is the seat of the mind, as I understand. Our Lord Himself once told us that He was meek and gentle of heart etc.

And it was from His pierced Heart, from which flowed Blood and Water, that His Church was born.

The East DOES in fact make use of the heart symbol in its iconography.

At St Nicholas' UGCC Church in Toronto where I attend, the great icon of Christ the Pantocrator there is surrounded in a circle composed of . . . hearts.

And the Orthodox icon of Christ the Lover of Mankind often places little hearts on the Gospel Book our Lord is depicted holding in his left hand (I have just such an icon from Greece).

And our Eastern tradition is to always kiss the edge of the Chalice after Holy Commmunion in veneration of the Wounded Side of Christ at which we are truly nourished in that most Sacred Mystery of His Body and Blood.

If there are those who prefer a depiction of our Lord's Heart (as did, without question, the EC New Martyrs of the communist yoke), then who is anyone to accuse them of bad theology?

Alex

This discussion should stop now. It is becoming redundant.

Alice, Moderator

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words. I hope that you are feeling better and that all is well with your health.

In Christ,
Alice

Once again, I feel the need to return to this thread's original topic and update the Monastery Icons/Sacred Arts Foundation saga.

I received a message from a poster at another site who had read my last prior update at that forum on the subject - essentially the same info as in my last post to this thread on the matter. He was in the process of seeking to convince some persons of his acquaintance from using MI/SAF as a vendor.

However, in doing some research of his own, he discovered that that there were some discrepancies:

• the ashram website (http://www.atmajyoti.org/contact1.asp) now claims that it is based in New Mexico
• there is no current evidence online linking the 1482 Rango Way California street address to the ashram
• the Missouri corporate registration refers to "William Burke", rather than "George Burke", as we know the former Abbott to be named.

So, to re-establish ... once again ... the linkage, I went searching and found ...

• a search for "1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA" produces this - The Christ of India [atmajyoti.org] - on the ashram site and scrolling further down the page will display the article's copyright, using the Borrego Springs (CA) address
• Visiting the Ashram's site [atmajyoti.org], and scrolling, there is reference to the ashram being presently located in Cedar Crest, NM
• Clicking the Q&A link on the ashram site leads to questions addressed to and answered [atmajyoti.org] Swami Nirmalananda, abbot of Atma Jyoti Ashram. Many will recognize the jovial features of "Abbott George" in the top right photo at Q&A. And, I'm sure some recollect that this is the name he adopted after departing Orthodoxy
• Corporate records of the NM Public Regulation Commission, an agency of the Secretary of State's Office, reveals that, as of Sept 2007, amomg the "foreign corporation" (those doing business in, but incorporated outside the state) is a Missouri corporation named Sacred Arts Foundation [nmprc.state.nm.us] and its mailing address is P.O. Box 1370, Cedar Crest , NM 87008
• A return visit to the ashram's website, specifically its Contact Info page [atmajyoti.org] reveals that its mailing address is "Atma Jyoti Ashram, P. O. Box 1370, Cedar Crest, New Mexico 87008"

I neither know nor care what the relationship is between George and William Burke. Suffice it to say, where goes the ashram, there goes Sacred Arts - they continue to be one and the same entity, despite the legalism of separate incorporation.

To replicate my search of the NM records - since the link above resulted from a search function and such links aren't always stable:

go to NM Secretary of State - Corporations [sos.state.nm.us],

click on the link provided http://www.nmprc.state.nm.us/,

click on the "Corporations Information" button,

enter Sacred Arts Foundation in the Corporation Information Inquiry box and press "Find" - it will be the first entry provided in an alphabetical listing.

It could all just be a coincidence - believe that and I'll offer you a chance to get in on the ground floor of a mining operation situated on the outer rings of Saturn - great view

Many years,

Neil

I was given an "icon" from "Monastery Icons" years ago as gift from a Roman Catholic priest. They were distributed throughout the diocese by the Bishop! I burned it two weeks ago.

Furthermore, I know of an Orthodox Church which has one on their tetrapod (namesake of the Church). When I brought it to the priest's attention he told me that it is okay because it was blessed and any demonic influences or disturbances are exorcised.
However, it hurts to look at this tacky excuse for an "icon".

I wish that the word could be spread far and wide about these charlatans!!!