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A second marriage is a Sacrament, as is the first.

In the Orthodox Church we DO NOT allow people to live in fornication -which is what sexual intercourse is without the Sacrament of Matrimony. No priest in the world has the authority to give a couple a blessing to engage in sexual intercourse without the Sacrament of Matrimony.

The Rite of a Second Crowning is used when both parties have been divorced.

If it is a first marriage for one of the parties the customary Rite of Crowning is used.

(Not sure what Stuart would make of that? One spouse receives the Sacrament, the other does not?)

This is irrational.

1) What was the service performed over the couple before Vespers?

2) What are the prayers recited over the newlyweds at Vespers?

-oOo-

How does Levin deal with the fact that the Church was gving people approval to live in fornication? Or does she count the second marriage as a Sacrament?

The facts are the facts, Father. Live with them and get over it. I am not going to engage in a discussion with a man whose only argument is, "I just don't believe it", and who puts down everyone who disagrees with him as being a "revisionist". Read more history, try to understand how people were thinking then, and maybe, just maybe, you will get some answers to your questions.

The facts are that you have not produced even one statement from either an Orthodox Synod or even one Orthodox bishop which confirms what Pope Benedict said, namely that the Orthodox do not regard a second marriage as a Sacrament.

How can I engage in a discussion with a person who has not been able to back up Pope Benedict's words by producing one statement from an Orthodox Synod that second marriage is not a Sacrament?

Really that is exaggerative. I spoke of the revisionist character of Schmemman's and Meyendorff's writings which had them banned from Russian seminaries. You must be aware of the accusation since it is made not just by the rectors of Russian seminaries but also by people in the West?

The discussion before us is whether Pope Benedict was correct in his address to the priests of the diocese of Aosta in 2005.

Here it is again...


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...n-xvi_spe_20050725_diocesi-aosta_en.html

"We know the problem, not only of the Protestant Communities but also of the
Orthodox Churches, which are often presented as a model for the possibility
of remarriage. But only the first marriage is sacramental: the Orthodox too
recognize that the other marriages are not sacramental, they are reduced and
redimensioned marriages and in a penitential situation; in a certain sense,
the couple can go to Communion but in the awareness that this is a
concession "by economy", as they say, through mercy which, nevertheless,
does not remove the fact that their marriage is not a Sacrament."

At the risk of getting involved in this, I will ask both Father Ambrose and Stuart to cease their posts to each other until our Administrator can review this thread. I believe that at this point it is getting out of hand.

Alice, Moderator

Pope Benedict and all the Orthodox sources are correct. You are wrong, because you refuse to recognize the extent to which present pastoral practice is at odds not only with canonical norms but the entire Orthodox theology of marriage. And that is my last word.

REPEAT:

At the risk of getting involved in this, I will ask both Father Ambrose and Stuart to cease their posts to each other until our Administrator can review this thread. I believe that at this point it is getting out of hand.

Thank you.

Alice, Moderator

[quote=StuartK]
Pope Benedict and all the Orthodox sources are correct. You are wrong, because you refuse to recognize the extent to which present pastoral practice is at odds not only with canonical norms but the entire Orthodox theology of marriage. And that is my last word. [/quote]

Fr. Ambrose has asked for evidence from Orthodox sources multiple times. Please provide it.

I've presented more than enough evidence. As I said, I am through on this topic.

Are all the liturgical typiks/texts the same for Second Marriage (Greek AND Russian)?

Do the Greeks do an actual Crowning in Second Marriage.

And what do the Old Believers do?

That would be very telling.

Although in general the Russian usages may be older, according to sociological & linguistic principles colonies are more conservative (cf. North American English versus UK English).

This seems to be a discussion among those in the Byzantine Tradition, but if I may be permitted to join:

Brother StuartK suggested earlier that Second marriage in the Russian Church was conditioned by an accomodation of secular considerations. Could this have occurred because of the caeseropapism that the Russian Church has experienced throughout its existence?

Comparatively, the Coptic Orthodox Church (which did not experience the same caeseropapism) only permits crowning in the first Marriage of any person. The Coptic Encyclopedia states: "the second marriage [is] inferior to the first; thus, the church accords it not the blessing of a crowning, but a prayer of forgiveness." Third marriages are not allowed. And there is only one reason for divorce - apostasy; as marriage reflects the relationship of Christ to his Church, adultery is seen as merely a subset of apostasy - i.e., apostasy from marriage.

Blessings

Is the second marriage considered to receive the Sacrament of Matrimony?

Or is it considered as a "blessing" to cohabit without the Sacrament of Matrimony?

The question as to whether a second Crowning is a Sacrament has been the rather complicated question of this thread.

I note that it is more restrictive than that and Crowning is permitted only if the bride and groom are virgins.

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/6_matrimony.html

What form does the wedding take when they are not?

I have been searching for this essay and managed to find it thanks to The WayBack Machine.

It is an interesting overview of marriage and divorce by Yuri Koszarycz, a Byzantine Catholic, who is a Senior Lecturer at the School of Theology at the Australian Catholic University. He lectures in Ethics, Bioethics, and Church History.

"Divorce and Remarriage: A Challenge to the Christian Tradition"
http://web.archive.org/web/20050615114810/http://www.mcauley.acu.edu.au/~yuri/ethics/Divorce.html