www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Syro-Russian Orthodox Church?

Has anyone else heard of this church? http://www.rbsocc.org/index.html What's the deal here? Are they canonical?

God bless and keep you....

A quick answer to your last question, NO! They are off-shoot of a group that was started by a deposed hierarch.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Ah, I see! Thank you Father Anthony.

God bless and keep you....

I know this has been an inactive thread for quite a while now, but I just happened to read an article [msnbc.msn.com] about this group today.

Ed,

Thanks for posting that link. I saw it yesterday and intended to, but forgot. They are certainly a busy group and their travels definitely give meaning to the term vagante.

Many years,

Neil

Since so many of us are up north
They sure do make themselves look good. Maybe this is all a mistake.

monks ? [msnbc.msn.com]

I mentioned this article in the thread regarding their "Church," that has been inactive for some time, expecting there to be great discussion, but I guess everybody is just tired talking about them.

Impressive bookstore

Many vagante LOOK great... but as often as not, looks are deceiving.

And these guys' founder was a priest... who ordained him to the episcopacy?

And given the Cyprianic view prevalent in Orthodoxy, it doesn't matter unless the ordaining bishop is canonical.

aramis,

Depends on which one of them you're asking about.

They trace one line back to Archbishop Joseph Rene Vilatte, but they do have a better line - and it's the one upon which they accordingly most rely.

John Skureth was an Antiochian priest, who left the canonical church and was ordained to the episcopacy by Bishop William Henry Francis Brothers (of the Vilatte Line). At some subsequent point, Skureth apparently came to realize that not everyone saw that line as efficacious and he sought, and reportedly obtained, episcopal ordination by Archbishop John Wendland, then Exarch of the Aleutians & North America for the Russian Church.

Curiously, if the date and event are legitimately reported, Archbishop Wendland ordained 2 bishops that day - the other being Dositheus Ivanchenko, who would be his assistant during his relatively brief tenure (65-70, I think) as Exarch. The story of Skureth's episcopal ordination has Bishop Ivanchenko being his co-consecrator - which raises some question in my mind as to the veracity of the tale. No reference anywhere, of which I'm aware, as to who the second co-consecrator might have been. But, on the other hand, I've also never seen reference as to Ivanchecko's co-cosecrators either - and the names of co-consecrators can often only be found on the paperwork and in the memories of those in attendence.

Anyway, Skureth, if ordained by Wendland, probably had validity at that point, but it was short-lived. He later ordained a Joseph Sokolowski to the episcopacy. Sokolowski spent years heading up a 'Orthodox-Catholic diocese' in Indiana, that went by several different names over time. (Both he and Skureth spent years in Indiana, where they pretty much had the vagante episcopi market cornered).

Sokolowski consecrated a few 'bishops', most of whom faded into oblivion over time - the notable exception being Stephen Thomas - the Metropolitan of the group we're discussing. Thomas had been a GO priest, although his history there seems to be a matter of some embarrassment, because no one seems sure how he managed to get himself ordained to the presbyterate - there has been some question as to when, where, and if he attended seminary.

Stephen has contributed significantly to vagante lines, having ordained any number of hierarchs (before his recent reclusiveness), the majority of whom he would now declare to be 'deposed', 'schismatic', or 'heretical'. A few of them can be found in other 'Churches' - others have disappeared from the active vagante scene - at least for now.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

Sometimes you are scary.

Joseph Skureth was not ordained to the episcopate by any hierarch of the Moscow Patriarchate (nor, indeed, by any canonical Orthodox hierarch). He was indeed ordained a priest, first by William Henry Francis Brothers while they were both "Old Catholics" and later they were both - separately - ordained to the Orthodox priesthood by Bishop Dositheus (in the contact of what was expected to be a "union" of the Old Catholics with the Moscow Patriarchate, which never materialized).

In the later nineteen-fifties, Dositheus himself was elected Bishop by the Moscow Patriarchate and, at Moscow's request, was ordained to the episcopate by Bishop (later Metropolitan) Orestes Chornock, Bishop Andrew (Molodvanu - Romanian Patriarchate), and a third canonical hierarch whose name escapes me at the moment (perhaps Archbishop Panteleimon of Canada). Bishop Dositheus was Acting Patriarchal Exarch until Archbishop (later Metropolita) John arrived from Russia.

Fr. Serge

Bless, Father,

To clear up the name, lest anyone think we are speaking of 2 different people - Skureth was John Joseph Skureth and references to him, in various documents, appear under both John and Joseph.

You are correct. Skureth was initially ordained to the presbyterate by William Henry Francis Brothers. Because he later served as an Antiochian priest - under Sayedna Michael (Shaheen) of Toledo (during the era of the two Antiochian jurisdictions), I presumed that he had been ordained by Bishop Michael. In skimming some of Bertil Persson's materials, I see that I was wrong and his subsequent presbyteral ordination was indeed by Bishop Dositheus, as you indicate.

Your report that Bishop Dositheus was ordained to the episcopacy by Metropolitan Orestes in the late '50s makes much more sense than the sequence of events asserted by some of the vagante, i.e., that he was so ordained in 1966 by Archbishop John - and then acted as co-consecrator for Skureth's episcopal ordination, on the same day (a tale that really smacks of non-canonicity).

According to Persson, he (Skureth) amassed three - count 'em - episcopal ordinations in a 1 week period during April, 1966:

• 4/10/66 Archbishop Walter Xavier Brown, assisted by Archbishop Robert S Zeiger
• 4/14/66 Archbishop Brothers, assisted by Archbishop Joseph A MacCormack
• 4/17/66 Consecrated by Archbishop Wendland, assisted by Bishop Dositheus

Regardless of whether that 3rd one happened or not, he was shortly afterwards released by the Antiochians.

Many years,

Neil

Only sometimes, Stuart ??

Many years,

Neil (who thinks that might have been a compliment )