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Dec 29th, 2019
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Father Deacon Paul,
I see no realistic option unless we wish to break our word. We can argue until we are blue in face that some other arrangement ought to be made. It will do no good. That's the deal we struck and we ought to be adult enough to stick to it. We aren't Protestants or at least aren't supposed to be.
Metta Physical Who is we? Does the other side of "we" have the unilateral and exclusive right to change terms of the arrangement? Is the word of "we" bound to such changes?
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That seems to be evident with some of the posters here.
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So, all Christians in the East for the first 1000 years of Christendom were actually Protestant?
That's a new one.
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So, I guess Patriarch Gregory III of Antioch is a protestant in Byzantine Clothing since he agrees fully with the Zoghby formula. I am by no means "a protestant" in Byzantine clothing and to accuse others of being such is ridiculous. I don't agree with the Latin Churches positions on certain issues, nor do I think they are heretical for holding those positions. I disagree with some of them not because they are wrong but because they are foreign to the Eastern Churches historically. I don't think this is wrong or protestant position to hold to but rather I think it is being faithful to our Churches Theological Tradition. I take seriously the call of Blessed John Paul II in Ut Unum Sint when he said With regard to the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with the Catholic Church, the Council expressed its esteem in these terms: "While thanking God that many Eastern sons of the Catholic Church ... are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West, this sacred Synod declares that this entire heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in their various traditions, belongs to the full catholic and apostolic character of the Church Some of that Eastern heritage of understanding spirituality, liturgy, discipline, and theology is vastly different than the Latin Church- especially the Primacy of Peter, which I in no way deny, and Infallibility. These are still being discussed at the highest levels between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Us Eastern Catholics have a role to show the Orthodox that one can be fully Orthodox and in Communion with Rome. Again the words of Blessed John Paul II in Ut Unum SintIn view of all this, the Catholic Church desires nothing less than full communion between East and West. She finds inspiration for this in the experience of the first millennium. In that period, indeed, "did not prevent Christians, through mutual relations, from continuing to feel certain that they were at home in any Church, because praise of the one Father, through Christ in the Holy Spirit, rose from them all, in a marvellous variety of languages and melodies; all were gathered together to celebrate the Eucharist, the heart and model for the community regarding not only spirituality and the moral life, but also theChurch's very structure, in the variety of ministries and services under the leadership of the Bishop, successor of the Apostles. The first Councils are an eloquent witness to this enduring unity in diversity". Here Blessed John Paul II admits that in the early Church there was a diversity of "development of different experiences of ecclesial life." Yet the Church was still united. This is the goal of Ecumenism and what is so wrong about it? Why can't Eastern Catholics and Western Catholics live in communion while having different understandings of certian aspects of the faith? It worked for a thousand years why can't it work now? Blessed John Paul II also says, If today at the end of the second millennium we are seeking to restore full communion, it is to that unity, thus structured, which we must look. Further Blessed John Paul asked for the Orthodox and Catholic Churches to come together and reexamine and reformulate the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome that would unite the Churches instard of dividing them. One would think that Papal Infallibility as it is currently taught would be one of those things that would need to be reevaluated and reformulated to unite rather than divide. Eastern Catholics are in the unique position of being the voice of Orthodoxy within Catholicism as Bishop John Michael said at the recent Orientale Lumen conference. Our voice prepares the way for reunion. I also believe that there will never be another Infallible Statement from the Roman Pope because I believe that they have realized that could destroy the Ecumenical relationships with the Orthodox Churches. Also, Vatican I dealt with pretty specific problems of the Western Church at the time. The forcible signature of the Melkite Patriarch, and also the recent Ancient faith radio interview of a Melkite Priest, speaks of the discomfort felt by many Eastern Christians over Vatican I at the time and in the present. Nelson,
Have you read what Orthodox Christians say about those who identify themselves as "Orthodox in Communion with Rome"? I am not bothered by what Orthodox think of Eastern Catholics or those who consider themselves Orthodox in Communion with Rome. It is their right to say whatever they want to say about us. Doesn't make them right.
Last edited by Nelson Chase; 09/21/11 06:18 PM.
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Byzantine Catholics have one patriarch. He resides in Rome. I love and respect him. Until we have another patriarch I shall honor him.
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Just because people disagree with you Carson doesn't mean they don't love and respect the Pope of Rome.
The head of the Byzantine Catholic Church is the Metropolitan Archbishop of Pittsburgh who is in Communion with the Patriarch of Rome.
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We have one Patriarch. At present his name is Pope Benedict XVI. We have no other Patriarch. If we unite with the Ukies we will have another Patriarch. But for now we have one Patriarch. He lives in Rome.
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Who is this "we" that you speak for?
I'm being serious.
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We have one Patriarch. At present his name is Pope Benedict XVI. We have no other Patriarch. If we unite with the Ukies we will have another Patriarch. But for now we have one Patriarch. He lives in Rome. CDL...Is the pope your patriarch?? The reason I ask this is hasn't the papal office renounced the title of Patriarch of the West??? That could be part of the problem...The papal office is seperate from the patriarchal see of Rome...just a quick thought... Chris
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CDL...Is the pope your patriarch?? The reason I ask this is hasn't the papal office renounced the title of Patriarch of the West??? That could be part of the problem...The papal office is seperate from the patriarchal see of Rome...just a quick thought...
Chris Thanks for putting your question in a reasonable setting. I do not know. If that is the case then we have no Patriarch as do the Ukies.
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The role of the Eastern Catholic Churches is to live up to our commitment, being true to the Union but also true to practically all other Eastern traditions and rites. It should also expect the Roman Church to faithfully follow Canon Law. When you say "practically all" traditions and rites, which would you say should be discarded? I was wondering who was going to catch this qualifier. https://www.byzcath.org/forums/images/icons/default/laugh.gif With regard to the Byzantine Catholic Church, some of the Eastern traditions, like the Greek custom of no vocal participation in the Divine Liturgy and the Russian custom of professional choirs usurping congregational singing should not be accepted by us. Also mirovanije is our tradition, not antidoron. Since the rise of Constantinople the Eastern Churches have, more often than not, avoided constructive criticism of government or its leaders when they have harmed the spiritual welfare of its citizens; we should not be so passive. Christ is amongst us! Fr Deacon Paul
Last edited by Paul B; 09/22/11 11:08 AM.
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CDL...Is the pope your patriarch?? The reason I ask this is hasn't the papal office renounced the title of Patriarch of the West??? That could be part of the problem...The papal office is seperate from the patriarchal see of Rome...just a quick thought...
Chris I saw this comment about the renunciation of a Patriarchate by the Pope on the forum previously...I'm interested in some detail about this. Would you or someone please provide a reference?
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CDL...Is the pope your patriarch?? The reason I ask this is hasn't the papal office renounced the title of Patriarch of the West??? That could be part of the problem...The papal office is seperate from the patriarchal see of Rome...just a quick thought...
Chris I saw this comment about the renunciation of a Patriarchate by the Pope on the forum previously...I'm interested in some detail about this. Would you or someone please provide a reference? You can find the reference on the Vatican website, but it's only posted in French and Italian. Note: Google translation from French to English PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE PROMOTION OF CHRISTIAN UNITY Communiqué concerning the abolition of the title
"Patriarch of the West" in the 2006 Pontifical YearbookIn the 2006 Pontifical Yearbook , in the list of titles of the Pope, it lacks the title "Patriarch of the West." This absence was commented on in different ways and requires clarification. Without considering the historical question of the title of Patriarch complex in all its aspects, we can state the historical point of view that the ancient Patriarchate of the East, established by the Councils of Constantinople (381) and Chalcedon (451), involved a quite clearly circumscribed territory, while the territory of the See of the Bishop of Rome remained vague. In the East, in the imperial ecclesiastical system of Justinian (527-565), along with the four Eastern patriarchs (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem), the Pope was regarded as Patriarch of the West. In contrast, favor the idea of Rome three Petrine episcopal sees: Rome, Alexandria and Antioch. Without using the title "Patriarch of the West", the IV th Council of Constantinople (869-870), the IV th Lateran Council (1215) and the Council of Florence (1439) regarded the Pope as the first of the five Patriarchs then. The title "Patriarch of the West" was adopted during the year 642 by Pope Theodore I. Subsequently, this title was rarely used, and without a clear meaning. Its development took place in the XVI th and XVII th centuries, through the proliferation of titles of the Pope in the Pontifical Yearbook , it appeared for the first time in 1863. Currently, the meaning of "West" refers to a cultural context that is not only related to Western Europe, but extending from the United States of America to Australia and New Zealand , and other differing cultural contexts. Naturally, such a meaning of "West" does not describe an ecclesiastical territory or be used as defining a patriarchal territory. If we want to give the term 'West' a meaning applicable to ecclesiastical juridical language, it could be understood only in reference to the Latin Church. The title "Patriarch of the West" while describing the special relationship of the Bishop of Rome in the Latin Church and could express the particular jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome to the Latin Church. Therefore, the title "Patriarch of the West," unclear from the beginning, became obsolete in the evolving history and virtually unusable. Continue to use it no longer has meaning. This is especially true with the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church has found for the Latin Church a canonical ordering appropriate to current needs using the episcopal conferences and their international meetings. Keep the title "Patriarch of the West" does not change anything in reality the recognition, performed particularly solemn manner, by the Second Vatican Council, the ancient patriarchal Churches ( Lumen Gentium , n. 23). Such suppression can still less to imply new demands. Audit waive wants to express as a historical and theological reality, and at the same time, be a waiver of any claim, waiver that could be used to ecumenical dialogue. Source: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...doc_20060322_patriarca-occidente_fr.html
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Special pleading on a massive scale. As history, Grade: F.
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I have been only participated in this discussion as an observer, but now I think I have some thoughts. First, the idea that the Pope of Rome is the Patriarch of the Church of Pittsburgh is a stretch. According to Title 6 of the CCEO about Metropolitan Churches it refers to the communion of the Church with the Supreme Authority of the Church. The CCEO also states in Canon 42 regarding Supreme Authority Just as, by the Lord's decision, Saint Peter and the other Apostles constitute one college, so in a similar way the Roman Pontiff, successor of Peter, and the bishops, successors of the Apostles, are joined together. The Mission Statement of the Particular Law of the Metropolitan Church of Pittsburgh also states In carrying out its mission, the Council of Hierarchs shall be ever mindful of its full communion with the Apostolic See of Rome. It does not state that it is under direct control, or subject to, or less than, but full communion. My second thought is let's see how this whole business plays out with the SSPX regarding how the Western Church views the Second Vatican Council. If things can be understood in a different way for the lift the suspension of that group why must we limit ourselves to a strictly western understanding of any council after the first 7?
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