www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology do byzantine catholic priests pray the divine office?

Dia dhuit. (God be with you)

Here's my first set of questions for my Byzantine Catholic brothers. I appreciate your responses.

Do Byzantine Catholic priests pray the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours)?

Is it in the same format as that of their Latin Rite brothers?

Or is there some variations based off of the Byzantine traditions?

Do the Greek Orthodox priests pray a Divine Office of one sort or another?

If Byzantine Catholic priests of America do pray the Divine Office, is it in English or Greek?

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh
(Goodbye,
Dennis)

Dennis,

The "Liturgy of the Hours" is the Latin title for the prayers that are said at various times during the day. For Eastern Catholics there is an equivalent. In some cases the hours have the same names (vespers, for example, is still evening prayer, lauds and matins may be combined to form Orthros...). The format is slightly different, although still contains readings from the psalms. While each office in the Latin Church can be prayed in about 15-20 minutes, the Eastern hours usually take an hour or more if fully prayed.

Monastics tend to pray the full set of hours while other clerics pray a subset of these. The language tends to be the vernacular. In my Melkite Church some clerics use Arabic while others use English.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Donchadh,

As a Celtic enthusiast myself, greetings to you!

I have a Godson whose name is "Duncan." Is this the Anglicized of "Donchadh?"

Was not St Donchadh the Abbot of Iona in the time of St Margaret of Scotland and who defended the Celtic traditions against the incursions of the Roman Christians? Nigel Tranter wrote about him in his book on her.

You can see an on-line translation of our Divine Office, especially prepared for lay recitation and celebration, at:

http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/services.htm

There is also an English translation of the old Celtic Breviary at: Celticchristianity.org

That group is a "vagante" one, but their Celtic liturgical scholarship is quite good and I know some Catholics of Celtic background who use that Breviary.

The Divine Office was and has always been a liturgical prayer to be celebrated by the community, rather than the individual. The Eastern Churches oblige monastic communities and churches to celebrate the Horologion as a family.

We don't have the same strictures in place regarding the celebration of the Horologion as in the West.

Priests (and Laity) are obliged to "pray always" and the Horologion and the Psalter will figure very prominently in that prayer life.

There are rules that allow one to replace the Hours with certain numbers of recitations of the Jesus Prayer: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

In the book I have, one would recited this prayer about 1,000 times with 150 prostrations (the Celtic Church was the only western Church that performed prostrations).

In an angelic revelation to St Pachomius of Egypt, the Father was given a prayer rule to say 12 Psalms at the turn of every hour, night and day.

This tradition remains in Egypt to this day where every Hour has 12 Psalms (Prime and Midnight Hour have more). St John Cassian brought this tradition to the West and at least two hours of the ancient Roman and Benedictine Breviaries contained 12 Psalms.

The Greek Fathers, as Fr. Taft the liturgist wrote, divided the Psalter into 12 groups or "stases" of 12 psalms (with three more in the first group and three in the last). One such portion was said at the beginning of each hour, night and day.

The Ethiopian monks still practice this form of prayer. The Anglican, Nicholas Ferrar, also practiced this form of prayer with his family at Little Gidding.

The "Office" also referred to any short prayer that was said constantly by monks and laity, throughout the day and during their work.

God bless,

Alex

To build on the fine information Alex has given:

In the Orthodox tradition, the equivalent of the Divine Office/breviary/Liturgy of the Hours is called the horologion, časoslov or "the hours', and is meant to be a community prayer prayed in church by monastics. I don't of any obligation priests have to pray the hours privately every day the way Roman priests do the Divine Office. Of course one can pray all or part of them privately, and the prayer manuals for the laity often have compilations of prayers taken from them.

(Do Byzantine Catholic priests have a set of hours patterned on the Roman breviary that they have to say every day, copying the Roman rule?)

In the Russian tradition in which I live, there is Vespers or Vigil (Vespers, Matins and Prime strung together) the night before Sunday or a holy day (as with the Jews, the church day begins at sundown the night before), then the third and sixth hours are read in the morning before Liturgy.

Also, Orthodox monasteries bunch the hours together for long services in church (like having the third and sixth with Liturgy, and they have the ninth hour with Vespers afterwards) and don't scatter them through the day like Roman monks traditionally do with terce, sext, nones, etc.

Nicholas Ferrar was thoroughly Protestant (Foxe's Book of Martyrs was read every day at Little Gidding) but yes, he did start something quasimonastic in the 1600s Church of England.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Yes, you are quite right about Ferrar.

But, in his day, "Protestant" meant something more like what "High Church" means today and "Puritan" was what we mean by "Protestant" today.

The Puritans looked with grave suspicion on him and his family. Tracts were published that portrayed nuns with rosaries standing before his Chapel.

He and his family fasted regularly and gave the extra money to the poor.

They made devotional crucifixes for people to wear and display, not exactly the Protestant practice as we know it.

He bowed deeply before the Cross as he entered and left his chapel for the three public liturgical services he held for his family.

In addition to reciting the whole Psalter twice in every 24 hours, he insisted on memorizing the book. He would sleep only for a few hours then rise for the reading of the Psalter throughout the night until morning.

He taught the local village children to memorize the Psalms and gave them a penny for each Psalm memorized. Most of them knew the Psalms off by heart, as did Ferrar's mother and Ferrar himself. The children thought they were getting candy money. The parents saw the wonderful change in their children as a result and asked Ferrar to continue teaching them.

His approach was highly sacramental. His bishop only gave him approval to celebrate the Eucharist once a month. Ferrar insisted on celebrating a "Dry Mass" on other Sundays.

The reading of Foxe's book of martyrs was done primarily out of respect for a relative of Ferrar's, an Anglican bishop by the same name, Nicholar Ferrar, who was killed by Roman Catholics.

The reading of this book was popular among Anglicans and Lutherans of the day.

The fact that it was anti-Roman and listed Protestants killed by Catholics reflected the spirit of the time.

The Orthodox Calendar also lists many Orthodox martyrs, on Athos (Zographou) and elsewhere, killed by Roman Catholics. The Orthodox Calendar (Jordanville)also lists a feast in honour of the return to Orthodoxy of three million Uniates at the time of Bishop Josef Siemashko. And so?

If, and I don't quite know, your argument against Ferrar rests mainly on his Protestantism and his reading of Foxe's book of martyrs, then Ferrar was certainly much closer in spirit to Catholics and to the Protestants of his time, who, in fact, persecuted him throughout his life and destroyed his Chapel and ended his monastic experiment.

Catholic visitors to Little Gidding, including Jesuits, always wrote about how much they admired Nicholar Ferrar. King Charles I told his Catholic wife how the rule of life of Ferrar and his family put to shame "the stricted religious orders of Roman Catholicism."

In reading Foxe's book of martyrs, Ferrar was reading within the tradition of his church at the time, just like St Theophane the Recluse repeated the anti-Catholic prejudices of his own Orthodox Church - many of which still persist.

Ferrar is regarded by High Church Anglicans as "Catholic" although not in communion with Rome.

Every Anglo-Catholic today, including many Anglican converts to Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, esteem Ferrar highly and many continue to venerate his memory privately.

It is just the example of Nicholas Ferrar and his dedication to holiness that could well have been one of the triggers of traditional revivalism within Anglicanism, which has also led many Anglicans to seek membership in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Alex

I just want to add that the hours such as Compline, First, Third, Sixth and Ninth, and the midnight office, like Serge mentioned, are primarily monastic, so our priests are not obliged to celebrate them. However, Vespers and Matins are not monastic, and thus all Byzantine priests *should* be celebrating them, and faithful *should* be attending them when possible. One of the strong evidences that Vespers and Matins were not seen as a "monk" thing is in how there are so many responses to be sung by the people in these services.

Oh and Donnchadh, Fr. Serge Kelleher in Ireland celebrates the Divine Liturgy in Irish sometimes. You might try to find him (he is online) and email him to see if he has produced a tape of it.

in Christ,

anastasios

However, Vespers and Matins are not monastic, and thus all Byzantine priests *should* be celebrating them, and faithful *should* be attending them when possible.

Righto.

Russian usage: Vigil Saturday night, third and sixth hours Sunday morning.
Other Orthodox' usage: Vespers Saturday night, Matins Sunday morning.

Russians don't go to Communion unless they've been to Vespers the night before and said some set of prayers at home. (I actually was asked about this in Confession once.) Also, where Communion is infrequent, people will confess before every Communion.

Western Catholicism could do the whole round of services in its churches too if people wanted to — the books, in the good old days and now, have first Vespers for Saturday night (or before a holy day), then Matins and Mass Sunday morning, then second Vespers Sunday night. Time was, about 100 years ago and particularly among German Catholic immigrants, Sunday night Vespers and Benediction ended the Lord's day. It seems multiple Masses, including the Saturday evening ones, have completely displaced this tradition in most places, including where this latinization has been adopted by Byzantines.

http://oldworldrus.com

Serge,

Obviously I cannot answer for the American Latin Church but here in the UK the laity are being encouraged more and more to join in the Divine Office - and they do so, Secular Orders and laity.

Here the Divine Office is published in several formats - a 3 vol. set for the Clergy and 2 different formats for laity - Morning ( Lauds) and Evening (Vespers)Prayer with Night (Compline) Prayer and also Daily Prayer [ Morning Prayer and the three day Hours 9 Tierce Sext and None) and Evening Prayer together with Night Prayer]
This Volume also contains the Office of Readings for Good Friday and Holy Saturday.

Many people are now saying as many parts of the Office as possible in their own lives, as we are reminded that at some time somewhere in the world someone else is saying the same part of the Divine Office as us and it is truly the Prayer of the Church.

May Our Blessed Lady, Mother of us all and My Mistress keep all of us in Her most tender care.

Angela

Dear Slave of Love,

Actually, almost all of my Roman Catholic friends and acquaintances include a portion of the Daily Office into their prayers, using the volumes you discuss.

I have many more Eastern Church friends who consider the Horologion something that only monastics and priests do.

Interestingly, these same ones consider the Jesus Prayer and the prayer rope to be "off limits" to the laity as well.

The Roman Church has done a much better job of bringing the Daily Office back as a prayer for the entire people of God, to be sure.

Alex, your slave in more ways than one!

Orthodox Catholic,

I am astounded, dumbfounded and flabbergasted. :rolleyes:

You mean to say that some folk , since I am a ROMAN Catholic, think that I as a member of the laity , should not say The Office, or the Jesus Prayer or have a Prayer Rope. You'll tell me next that I should put away my 3 Icons --- NO WAY my friend.

May Our Mistress keep us all in her tender care

Angela

Dear Slave of Our Lady,

I don't know who, but certainly not me!

I think there was, and still is, a view among some Eastern Christians that neatly places certain spiritual practices within the exclusive range of clergy, a place in which they were never intended to be.

The Hours, the prayer rope and other practices were and are meant to be practiced by everyone, clergy, monastics and the Royal Priesthood-Laity.

It is just that the Roman Church has, I believe, done a much better job of adapting the praying of the Hours to the lives of busy Christians working in secular employments.

Some Roman parishes have quite active groups who attend Church regularly for Morning and Evening Prayer and the like, with the permission of the Bishop.

My Roman Catholic friends who are devoted to the Horologion will often interrupt a conversation to say they must attend to vespers or compline.

I think you've done that to me too.

Do you really leave me hanging in mid-sentence to go and say compline? Or is it because I've worn out my welcome with excessive verbiage? Yes, I know that's hard to believe, me and excessive verbiage . . .

Your Slave,

Alex

Dear Angela,

Thank you for your kind words about my posts.

here in the UK the laity are being encouraged more and more to join in the Divine Office - and they do so, Secular Orders and laity

That's wonderful! ISTM the translation and availability of the Divine Office, the official prayer of the Roman Church and the second most important next to the Mass, was one of the few well-intended reforms after Vatican II, and unlike the abuses, one that has been spectacularly unsuccessful catching on. AFAIK most Roman Catholics in America of whatever persuasion (sound, middle of the road or liberal) expect quick Masses or in the case of the last, laity doing Communion services, a sort of Mass substitute, for everything in church. Regarding that last one, far better and truly orthodox to have Vespers or Matins together in church to complement Mass or in its place when a priest can't serve. The Byzantine Rite has its own ante-Communion/missa sicca (for the Latinless: dry Mass) service called the typika or obednica (ahBYEDneetsa) for such priestless Sundays. (Basically the equivalent of the "Liturgy of the Word' ending shortly after the Gospel.)

2 different formats for laity - Morning (Lauds) and Evening (Vespers) Prayer with Night (Compline) Prayer and also Daily Prayer [ Morning Prayer and the three day Hours 9 Tierce Sext and None) and Evening Prayer together with Night Prayer

I have the first one on my shelves, got in England years ago. A fine example of the Roman Rite!

Alex, Russians and my priest have told me the č�tki worn on the left wrist is part of the monastic habit and shouldn't be worn thus by those not monks or nuns. But anyone can use it privately, though traditionally it is something given you by your spiritual father. One septuagenarian told me his Russian-born priest father didn't own one. "You've got those monastic things!' he said to me.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

I pray that you never shave off your beard and I don't care who thinks it is monastic or not!

Some people I know really love their prayer ropes, almost as emblems of identification with the Eastern Church.

Funny you should mention the part about the confessor. My confessor recommended the prayer rope and told me I should always have it with me (although not on the wrist etc.).

When I went back to him for Confession, he would simply prescribe numbers of Jesus Prayers to be done on the prayer rope.

What do you think about our Latin Rite Slave of Our Lady, Angela?

Isn't she wonderful?

I care for her more than I can say . . .

Hee-hee,

Alex

Alex,

Angela of Glasgow is wonderful.

If I lived around 1700 I'd pay Peter the Great's tax. The beard stays!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Glory to Jesys Christ!

I agree with those who noted that Orthodox Priests should be offering their parish a Morning Prayer (Orthros) and an Evening Vespers or Compline Service daily. In my home we read the Orthros and Compline Daily prior to meals.

Recently I discovered a little Gem, a small book printed in English , translated into English from a Greek Orthodox Book of Hours for the Layman by Archmandrite Cherubim. It is available from Light and Life Books and is put out by one of the OCA Convents in the Northeast. It was written to enable the Lay person at work to continue to pray the hours and has helped me greatly in my meditative life as I seek to pray always.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

Serge,

Believe it or not, though I am a"Eucharistic Minister" I am not entirely happy about the "Eucharistic Service outside of The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" however sadly at times it is the only way for some people to receive Communion. Like everyone we suffer from a shortage of priests. Well do I remember when Our School Chaplain was moved [ in the days when I was working !!!] and for 3 months he could not be replaced. We had 2,200 pupils in the place - teenagers from 12 - 18 of whom a goodly proportion attended daily Mass. What were we to do ? A local Priest came in once a week to celebrate Mass and the Cardinal gave pemission for him to Consecrate Hosts for the rest of the week to allow us - the Eucharistic Ministers to hold a Service - written by him- so that our Pupils could Receive Our Lord on a daily basis.

We had worked hard over a number of years to 'build 'up the School Community and our efforts to encourage the pupils attendance , if we had not been permitted this privilege, would probably have been for nought. That would have been a shame.

I do know of a Parish , not in our Diocese that has no priest -- what are the Parishoners to do during the week ? Remember we are used to being able to attend Mass on a daily basis if we so desire.

Ah -- we all need more labourers in the Vineyard and many many prayers for Vocations in ALL our Churches are needed.

May Our Blessed Lady Mother of us all keep us in Her tender care.

Angela

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Good gracious me,
What a question - do excessive verbiage and Orthodox Catholic go together . I may be a Scot but I am standing by the 5th Ammendment on that

As to Compline - well judge for your self - it is 11.30 pm and my bed calls but first of all a certain Book is calling as it always does even when I get home from Holiday at 1.45 am.

May Our Lady Our Mother and my Mistress keep us all in Her most tender care.

Angela

Serge,
Good Morning !

I forgot to say last night , that in our 3 month gap with no Chaplain we had tried getting the pupils to come to Morning Prayer [ of course we did not say it was Lauds - the Latin term would have put them off ] but within a few days the attendance dropped from 100 + to about 10-15.

By the way , during my 19 years there 7 pupils entered Seminary and only 1 withdrew before Ordination , one of the 7 is now in Rome on the 3rd year of his studies. For the UK this is quite a good record.

It is the same in our Parish - we have quite a reasonable number saying Morning Prayer in Choir each morning but few of them are young. We are trying to work out a method of drawing them in but it doesn't seem to work . Again I suspect this is a universal problem.

May Our Blessed Lady , Mother of us all, my Mistress, keep us all in Her most tender care.

Angela

Fr Deacon Ed:

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. I grew to appreciate the Divine Office while I was discerning a priestly vocation (for four years, though not all formal) in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church myself a couple of years back. (The three volume set that someone else mentioned here).

I wondered if my Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brothers did the same. I must say that I still recite the Divine Office and I truly love it! I would love to see and hear these prayers at the various Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches. Where I live there are two Byzantine Rite Catholic Parishes (one Ruthenian and one Ukrainian), but no others. However, we do have a Greek Orthodox Cathedral and I think also a Russian and Coptic outreach, but I can't remember on the last two to be certain�I'll have to check on that.

Isn't the Melkite Church a part of the Byzantine Rite, or am I mistaken on that?

Any way thanks for the info and God bless.

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Orthodox Catholic/Alex:

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it. A lot to go over and digest and I thank you (and everyone else as well).

Regarding some of your questions to me, I am familiar with St. Dunchadh of I� - Iona. However, my knowledge of him was not extensive enough to answer your question of the Celtic traditions vs. the Roman traditions - tonsure and Easter mainly. I knew he made way for the adoption of the Roman over the Celtic, but not much more than that. Most of my personal knowledge of him was because he came from Armagh, Ulster, Ireland - a place very, very close to where my family comes from (great granddad) - the border of Armagh and Monaghan and he bears the Irish form of my personal name; the one I use here as my call name. However, your questions got me to thinking and here is some of the info I came up with from the web and my library for ya. Unfortunately, he was not known as a scholar and as such did not have any writings survive, so they are absent from the Irish part of my library...more's the pity of it too!

Here's the info from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia online:
St. Dunchadh (DUNICHAD, DUNCAD, DONATUS), Confessor, Abbot of Iona; date of b. unknown, d. in 717. He was the son of Ceannfaeladh and grandson of Maelcobha of the house of Conall Gulban. He is first heard of as Abbot of Killochuir on the coast of S.E. Ulster (perhaps Killough, County Down). There is considerable dispute as to the year in which he became Abbot of Hy (Iona). The "Annals of Ulster" first mention him in that capacity under the year 706 (really 707); but Conamhail was abbot from 704 to 710. It may be that St. Dunchadh was coadjutor to Conamhail (the phrase is principatum tenuit). Or perhaps there was some schism in the monastery over the paschal question, for though St. Dunchadh is said to have ruled from 710 till 717, in 713 the death of "St. Dorbaine Foda, Abbot of Ia" is recorded by the "Annals of the Four Masters", and the same authority relates the appointment of "Faelchu, son of Dorbene" to the abbacy in 714. It was this Faelchu who was certainly abbot from 717 to 724. Both of these, however, may have been really coadjutors to St. Dunchadh, or priors, or even bishops, for there were certainly bishops in Iona at that period, and the phrase employed is cathedram Iae obtinuit. However this may be, the paschal controversy was settled at Iona by the adoption of the Roman usage, while St. Dunchadh was abbot. This took place at the instance of St. Egbert, a Northumbrian priest, who had been educated in Ireland. He came to Iona in 716, and was at once successful in persuading the community to abandon the Celtic Easter and tonsure. LESLIE A. ST. L. TOKE. Transcribed by Gerald M. Knight
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05191a.htm

From Our Sunday's Visitor Catholic Encyclopedia of Saints:
Dunchadh (d. 717), Abbot of Iona, Scotland, from 710 until his death. Roman liturgical customs were adopted in Scotland in his time. Feast day: May 25

From an Orthodox site:
March 24 Dunchad, Abbot of Iona, St. Dunchadh (Dumhade, Dumhaid, Dunchad), Abbot of Iona. Died March 24, 717. Dunchadh was born into the line of Conall Gulban. He became a monk at Killochuir in southeast Ulster and, from 710 until his death, ruled the abbey of Iona, Scotland. During Dunchadh's abbacy, Saint Egbert (f.d. April 24) finally convinced the Celtic monks of Iona to adopt the Roman customs-- tonsure, date of Easter, Benedictine Rule. For Saint Bede this was the final sign of unity from diversity, which was the main theme of his "Ecclesiastical History." Dunchadh is the titular saint of Killclocair, in the diocese of Armagh. His feast is still celebrated in Donegal on May 25; elsewhere it is March 24. He is the patron of sailors in Ireland.
http://www.orthodox-iona.co.uk/new_page_3.htm

Regarding Duncan, however I am more knowledgeable. It can be broken down into the Irish and Scott's version of the name - in Gaelic both very much the same, but in their Anglicization very much different.

Duncan, in this form, is actually a last name of Scottish origin that is in truth an English corruption of Scots Gaelic (much like the Ulster dialect of Irish Gaelic) Mac Dhonnchaidh, which translated into English would come to mean essentially: son of the brown warrior, or brown lord; brown meaning here dark skinned. This translation is valid in either Irish or Scott's Gaelic.

You will find Duncan in much use in parts of Ireland, but most especially with Ulster and there again with parts of counties Antrim, Down, Derry, Tyrone, and northern Armagh of Ulster, Ireland. The reason being that many of the modern-day citizens of those places are in fact descendants of "Scots Planters" - of the Elizabethan Plantations of Ulster - who were "Dissenters," as they came to be called by the Crown because they were Protestants, but dissented from the Anglican Church and were followers of Calvinism, or Presbyterianism.

Yet, one can find it in other places of Ireland and certainly amongst the American Irish. Generally, the personal name Donnchadha would be pronounced in a way that its English corruption would in fact be Donagh (Dough - NUH). However in Ireland you will find the Clan Mac Donagh compared to the Scots Clan Duncan. Check these Irish and Scottish Clan web sites: www.irishclans.com [irishclans.com] and www.tartans.com/hall.html [tartans.com] for the BASICS on Gaelic Clans and from there you can develop a greater search for the clan names in Ireland and Scotland that have the personal name of Donnchadh as its foundation and thus more info on the name in those areas. Also check out this Irish name site, which has a link to a Scottish name site: http://members.tripod.com/~roisindubh/

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Serge:

Thank you also. Based off of your reply, I would like to ask you some questions on the differences, if there be any/many, between the Russian Orthodox traditions and the other Orthodox traditions. I'll have to take some time in order to formulate them, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask you them in the near future.

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Anastasios:

Thanks for the info and especially this: "Oh and Donnchadh, Fr. Serge Kelleher in Ireland celebrates the Divine Liturgy in Irish sometimes. You might try to find him (he is online) and email him to see if he has produced a tape of it."

I will look this up and see what I can discover. When next I am in Ireland I just may stop in for a visit�if that is possible.

Thanks!

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Our Lady's Slave of Love/Angela:

Thanks for the info. Scotland is your adopted land huh? I've not yet been to Alba (Scotland), but I'd like to. I've heard the Scots are very hospitable people and that the craic is almost as good as in Ireland (ha, ha, ha).

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Hello!

Angela, thanks for your anecdote. (I object to the use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist unless there is a truly extraordinary need, but my esteem for you is unchanged. As you know, the Byzantine Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, don't have this.) It's a shame a Latin name like Lauds would turn off the youngsters — where is their sense of mystery, romance and continuity, like Donnchadh has with Gaelic?

Funny how people won't come to church if they won't "get' something. Seems instinctive. Perhaps the daily-Communion custom is built on this understandable instinct. (Grace builds on nature.) I like "getting' sacramentals too, like the blessed bread after Liturgy, unconsecrated but from the same loaf as the Sacrament, holy water and of course paper icons on bulletins, etc. (I actually don't take bulletins a lot of the time because I won't throw away an icon. What I don't or can't use — like if the picture is damaged — I privately burn.)

I take it you are a Scot? Or did you move to Scotland at some point? Don't want to make the mistake like one of the Aussie group The Seekers did when in concert in Edinburgh when he said, "It's so good to be back in England!' I haven't been as far north as Scotland but close — Teesside. And York, where the medieval city wall still stands (the one William of Wallace's Scots troops stormed in Braveheart).

From what I remember, the Roman Catholic Church in England is very Irish, understandable because of geography — you had a choice of Irish newspapers for sale in the narthex of the church! Is it like that in Scotland as well? I imagine it is as many Scots are nominal members of the Kirk (state Church of Scotland, Presbyterian).

Donnchadh, yes, Melkites not only use the Byzantine Rite but are the most Orthodox-oriented/least latinized of the large Byzantine Catholic Churches. They are the Catholic opposite number of the Arab Orthodox: the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, or as it is called in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Church. The Russian Catholic Church is just as Orthodox as the Melkites but a lot smaller.

Visit your local Greek or Russian Orthodox church to hear Vespers and Matins. You won't hear a lot of the same prayers as the Roman office but some will be familiar. Matins starts with "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will' three times, then the familiar words that open the Roman offices, from Psalm 50/51, "Lord, open my lips and my mouth shall show forth Your praise', twice. In the Byzantine Rite, the Magnificat is the morning canticle, sung at Matins; the Nunc dimittis — the canticle for Compline in your rite — is that of Vespers in the Byzantine.

Looking forward to your questions on different national Church usages in the Byzantine Rite but my knowledge isn't that extensive. I can offer a churchgoer's firsthand description of the Russian use as lived and compare what I see and hear to what I've experienced visiting other churches. The Russian version of the Byzantine chasuble (Greek phelonion or Russian felon) has a high-backed collar. Russian altar boys remove their vestment (sticharion/stichar — looks like a Latin dalmatic but longer) before going to Communion; men in minor orders (reader and subdeacon) on up receive in their vestments (cassock/podr'asnik and stichar, plus an orarion/stole on subdeacons). Many national/ethnic Churches have their very own chant that sounds different from the others. Russian music is very Westernized with its harmonies, based largely on Italian polyphony like Palestrina and on German chorales. Ruthenian church music is based on the folk music of the region and sounds like popular songs to Russian ears. Ukrainian music is along the same lines but with different tunes. Albanian, Greek and Arabic chants sound very similar and Middle Eastern with lots of minor-key stuff. The contrast between the European sound of Russian music and the non-Europeanness of many other Orthodox musics is one of the main differences.

Worshipped with Melkites for the first time this year while visiting a friend away from home and was knocked out by the beauty — I was among a mixed congregation of Arabs and non-Arabs, taking in the chant in three languages, Arabic, Greek and English. A powerful reminder that our religion wasn't Slavic to begin but was and still is Semitic. Salaam! (Peace.)

http://oldworldrus.com

Donnachadh

Thanks for that. Yes I am an adopted Scot [ quarter Scots, quarter Welsh and the rest Yorkshire but married to a Scot with a teeney bit of Portugese in him] A proper Heinz as you might say.

Actually the part of Glasow where I worship here is very Irish either Letterkenny or elswhere in Donegal. Mind you very little Gaelic is spoken and yes the craic is incredible.
Oh it's great fun !

Angela

Serge,
I do not propose to get myself into an argument with you - you'd win hands down - I'm no theologian nor am I a philosopher - just a convert[ Aaaargh some will remember how I hate the term, but there is no real alternative]
However may I comment on a few points you raised ?
<<I object to the use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist unless there is a truly extraordinary need>>
I think most of us do but at times needs must prevail - eg 1 priest ,a little over 400 Communicants, a time slot of three quarters of an hour before a 5 min break and then another year group-- actually 7 Masses during the day for a Holiday of Obligation in a large Secondary School.
Or again a Parish with 2 priests - one of whom is a Hospital Chaplain on 24 hour call out, with 1 vigil Mass, 3 Sunday Morning Masses 2 Hospital Masses and 1 evening Mass every weekend where Communion is always given under both Species.
The use of Eucharistic Ministers can be essential. Speaking personally it is a great privilege to be able to help and give this service to my fellow parishioners and each time I am overwhelmed at the realisation that at that point I have the Body of my Lord or His Most Precious Blood in my hands -- "Lord I am not worthy ......." And by the way I find it amazing that people will turn away from me at the altar rail , not just because I am lay but also because I am female .

<<It�s a shame a Latin name like Lauds would turn off the youngsters � where is their sense of mystery, romance and continuity, like Donnchadh has with Gaelic? >>>
Modern day Scottish teenagers don't have a sense of mystery ! A pity but there you are and it is very difficult to get them involved in something "new"

<<I take it you are a Scot? Or did you move to Scotland at some point?>>
adopted [ through marriage] but quarter Scots, quarter Welsh and half Yorkshire and I moved here some 34 years ago with my Scottish husband - and he is your typical nominally Church of Scotland baptised, but non practicing, and regards himself as an atheist and is very proud of it

<<From what I remember, the Roman Catholic Church in England is very Irish, understandable because of geography � you had a choice of Irish newspapers for sale in the narthex of the church! >>
Actually worse here but the Irish papers are on sale in the local newsagents. Almost every second person, at least in my parish has a relative in Letterkenny - and they all know each other and their family histories !
Life can be interesting !

As you may have read I have at long last attended Divine Liturgy - in the Ukrainian Church and am longing to participate again.

Thanks for your forebearance with this long screed.

May Our Blessed Mother, Mother of us all, my Mistress keep us all in Her most tender care.

Angela

I'm 1/8 Scottish 1/8 Irish and 3/4 Eastern German, Polish and maybe some Ukrainian.

I carry the trait of Eastern European but my first name is Irish, my middle name is Irish and last name is Scottish! Man! My mom must be crazy!!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Serge,

Inquiring Malankar minds want to know: why?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serge:
Russian altar boys remove their vestment (sticharion/stichar &#8212; looks like a Latin dalmatic but longer) before going to Communion;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Serge,

Inquiring Malankar minds want to know: why?



My guess is because they are not minor clergy (that is, in minor orders) but rather are substitutes for minor clergy. Those who actually are subdeacons and readers receive vested.

http://oldworldrus.com

While the liturgical hours are obviously important in the ongoing spiritual life of the community, I would like to suggest that the most important elements are the spiritual and corporal works of mercy as mandated by the Gospel.

For Morning Prayer I would suggest giving something to the poor on the street. For evening prayer, I would suggest giving some time to help the homeless shelter or other people-oriented service. Prayer is a most wonderful thing; but the needs of our brothers and sisters (and their children) is what's going to get us to the Lord. (and we pray while we do the service!!)

Let's not get too involved in the forms of prayer -- let's rather offer our services to our sisters and brothers in need. (Of course, the Byzantine mode of prayer is the best! --Nyuk, Nyuk!! Wink, wink!!)

Blessings!!!

Dr John:

I too see the need to be Christ to our brothers and sisters who are less off or in need in some way.

That being said, however, does not preclude, nor supercede the very real need for conversation with God; that is, prayer -- liturgical, formal, and ejaculations of varying length.

It is much like the puritanical Christian who tells his fellow man in the street as he passes him buy that he needs to have faith in God and rejoice, but then fails to give him a cloak for to warm the body.

In truth, oral prayer (liturgical, formal, and ejaculations) and physical prayer (corporeal works of mercy, paid labor, and personal labor) are two sides of the same coin; you can not have the one without the other.

I myself do volunteer for the local homeless shelter and women's center for abused women and children. I also give alms whenever I am in a position to do so.

However, all of my charitable works are not so much a burden, for lack of a better term, as to preclude me from conversing with the One who sought me, the One who bought me, and the One who taught me. It just so happens that I prefer to start, close, and season my day with the Divine Office. As a Latin Rite Catholic, I also include the Angelus at 6, 12, and 6. And my personal, ejaculations help me when I find myself most assuredly in need to talk to Him. I finish my day by taking an hour to simply reflect in quiet meditation. None of these things ever interferes with my paid labor, personal labor, or volunteer labor. In fact, I would say the opposite has occurred. In my own life I've found that I am more able to live at peace and with less stress since I developed my prayer life. Coincidentally, this also happens to be much the same for my tithing.

I would humbly suggest that one in fact pray their daily prayer, whatever that may be, as well as give alms to the poor.

Why should it be an either/or? Why not a both/and?

Donnchadh

Donnchadh, good answer!

Angela, as those who know me well here will tell you, that I conceded some use, based on extraordinary need, for extraordinary ministers in the Latin Church is a tribute to your winning personality. Finally saw Donnchadh's thread saying hello, where you said you are an adopted Scot. I wondered how I'd missed that before. You say you are a convert: were you C of E (high? low? broad? indifferent?), free church or other/nothing? When did you become Catholic? (I hope you don't mind the questions.) One of the leading lights on this forum was a "nothingarian' who was baptized, chrismated and communed about four or five years ago.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Irish, Scots and Russian Friends . . .

Yes, we need to pray to obtain the grace and love of God so that we may pour it out over our neighbours and those in need around us.

There is much in the ancient Celtic Christian ways that relate them to the Eastern Church. There is even the devotion to the "Seven Coptic Monks" buried in Ireland and mentioned in an old litany.

The Celtic Church was the only western Church that did prostrations and other practices that St John Cassian especially brought with him from Egypt and the East.

A warm welcome to our Celtic friends, Angela of Glasgow and Dunchaddh of Iona.

Thank you, Serge, for your warm and thoughtful points!

Alex

Dear Friends,

I am just wondering about Dr. John's latest posts.

If he is serious about the suggestion that the Rites are not important, does this mean that he will now be amendable to incorporating statues, rosary-beads and scapulars into his own devotional life?

Something tells me that this would not be so.

So the Rite and method of prayer is important after all . . .

Alex

Alex:

Thank you for your welcome. I have been very welcome here and I appreciate it.

Just wanted to let you know that I am not from Ia (Iona), but from the USA.

My great granddad was from the border area of Muineachan (Monaghan) and Ard Macha (Armagh) in Ulaidh (Ulster), Ireland (just north of Castleblayney, Monaghan and east a bit to the border of Armagh; we come from a long line of ranchers/farmers). Some of the family was in Armagh and some in Monaghan. He was involved with an Irish independence movement and left when it was too much.

Naturally, our Irish traditions (religious and cultural) are very much kept and celebrated.

Donnchadh

Dear Donnchadh,

Some would say that Iona and the U.S. have a lot in common, being an island unto itself etc. (kidding, kidding).

My own interest in Celtic history and traditions have led me to be invited to give two public lectures on the same.

The Irish monks, to be sure, would put to shame many strict Eastern monastics, as Brendan would agree (you see, I'm very careful about not getting you Irish upset . . .).

An Irish Orthodox friend once got me to do a Cross Vigil with him.

As you know, this involves saying Psalm 118/119 with a prostration every two verses and continuing into the next two or so Psalms until 100 prostrations are made.

I think I've still yet to fully recover from that exercise.

Keep up the excellent work on maintaining your traditions. And please share them with us so that we may see parallels and learn from them as well.

Alex