www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology do byzantine catholic priests pray the divine office?

Serge,

Believe it or not, though I am a"Eucharistic Minister" I am not entirely happy about the "Eucharistic Service outside of The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" however sadly at times it is the only way for some people to receive Communion. Like everyone we suffer from a shortage of priests. Well do I remember when Our School Chaplain was moved [ in the days when I was working !!!] and for 3 months he could not be replaced. We had 2,200 pupils in the place - teenagers from 12 - 18 of whom a goodly proportion attended daily Mass. What were we to do ? A local Priest came in once a week to celebrate Mass and the Cardinal gave pemission for him to Consecrate Hosts for the rest of the week to allow us - the Eucharistic Ministers to hold a Service - written by him- so that our Pupils could Receive Our Lord on a daily basis.

We had worked hard over a number of years to 'build 'up the School Community and our efforts to encourage the pupils attendance , if we had not been permitted this privilege, would probably have been for nought. That would have been a shame.

I do know of a Parish , not in our Diocese that has no priest -- what are the Parishoners to do during the week ? Remember we are used to being able to attend Mass on a daily basis if we so desire.

Ah -- we all need more labourers in the Vineyard and many many prayers for Vocations in ALL our Churches are needed.

May Our Blessed Lady Mother of us all keep us in Her tender care.

Angela

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Good gracious me,
What a question - do excessive verbiage and Orthodox Catholic go together . I may be a Scot but I am standing by the 5th Ammendment on that

As to Compline - well judge for your self - it is 11.30 pm and my bed calls but first of all a certain Book is calling as it always does even when I get home from Holiday at 1.45 am.

May Our Lady Our Mother and my Mistress keep us all in Her most tender care.

Angela

Serge,
Good Morning !

I forgot to say last night , that in our 3 month gap with no Chaplain we had tried getting the pupils to come to Morning Prayer [ of course we did not say it was Lauds - the Latin term would have put them off ] but within a few days the attendance dropped from 100 + to about 10-15.

By the way , during my 19 years there 7 pupils entered Seminary and only 1 withdrew before Ordination , one of the 7 is now in Rome on the 3rd year of his studies. For the UK this is quite a good record.

It is the same in our Parish - we have quite a reasonable number saying Morning Prayer in Choir each morning but few of them are young. We are trying to work out a method of drawing them in but it doesn't seem to work . Again I suspect this is a universal problem.

May Our Blessed Lady , Mother of us all, my Mistress, keep us all in Her most tender care.

Angela

Fr Deacon Ed:

Thank you very much for the info. I appreciate it. I grew to appreciate the Divine Office while I was discerning a priestly vocation (for four years, though not all formal) in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church myself a couple of years back. (The three volume set that someone else mentioned here).

I wondered if my Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brothers did the same. I must say that I still recite the Divine Office and I truly love it! I would love to see and hear these prayers at the various Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches. Where I live there are two Byzantine Rite Catholic Parishes (one Ruthenian and one Ukrainian), but no others. However, we do have a Greek Orthodox Cathedral and I think also a Russian and Coptic outreach, but I can't remember on the last two to be certain�I'll have to check on that.

Isn't the Melkite Church a part of the Byzantine Rite, or am I mistaken on that?

Any way thanks for the info and God bless.

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Orthodox Catholic/Alex:

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it. A lot to go over and digest and I thank you (and everyone else as well).

Regarding some of your questions to me, I am familiar with St. Dunchadh of I� - Iona. However, my knowledge of him was not extensive enough to answer your question of the Celtic traditions vs. the Roman traditions - tonsure and Easter mainly. I knew he made way for the adoption of the Roman over the Celtic, but not much more than that. Most of my personal knowledge of him was because he came from Armagh, Ulster, Ireland - a place very, very close to where my family comes from (great granddad) - the border of Armagh and Monaghan and he bears the Irish form of my personal name; the one I use here as my call name. However, your questions got me to thinking and here is some of the info I came up with from the web and my library for ya. Unfortunately, he was not known as a scholar and as such did not have any writings survive, so they are absent from the Irish part of my library...more's the pity of it too!

Here's the info from New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia online:
St. Dunchadh (DUNICHAD, DUNCAD, DONATUS), Confessor, Abbot of Iona; date of b. unknown, d. in 717. He was the son of Ceannfaeladh and grandson of Maelcobha of the house of Conall Gulban. He is first heard of as Abbot of Killochuir on the coast of S.E. Ulster (perhaps Killough, County Down). There is considerable dispute as to the year in which he became Abbot of Hy (Iona). The "Annals of Ulster" first mention him in that capacity under the year 706 (really 707); but Conamhail was abbot from 704 to 710. It may be that St. Dunchadh was coadjutor to Conamhail (the phrase is principatum tenuit). Or perhaps there was some schism in the monastery over the paschal question, for though St. Dunchadh is said to have ruled from 710 till 717, in 713 the death of "St. Dorbaine Foda, Abbot of Ia" is recorded by the "Annals of the Four Masters", and the same authority relates the appointment of "Faelchu, son of Dorbene" to the abbacy in 714. It was this Faelchu who was certainly abbot from 717 to 724. Both of these, however, may have been really coadjutors to St. Dunchadh, or priors, or even bishops, for there were certainly bishops in Iona at that period, and the phrase employed is cathedram Iae obtinuit. However this may be, the paschal controversy was settled at Iona by the adoption of the Roman usage, while St. Dunchadh was abbot. This took place at the instance of St. Egbert, a Northumbrian priest, who had been educated in Ireland. He came to Iona in 716, and was at once successful in persuading the community to abandon the Celtic Easter and tonsure. LESLIE A. ST. L. TOKE. Transcribed by Gerald M. Knight
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05191a.htm

From Our Sunday's Visitor Catholic Encyclopedia of Saints:
Dunchadh (d. 717), Abbot of Iona, Scotland, from 710 until his death. Roman liturgical customs were adopted in Scotland in his time. Feast day: May 25

From an Orthodox site:
March 24 Dunchad, Abbot of Iona, St. Dunchadh (Dumhade, Dumhaid, Dunchad), Abbot of Iona. Died March 24, 717. Dunchadh was born into the line of Conall Gulban. He became a monk at Killochuir in southeast Ulster and, from 710 until his death, ruled the abbey of Iona, Scotland. During Dunchadh's abbacy, Saint Egbert (f.d. April 24) finally convinced the Celtic monks of Iona to adopt the Roman customs-- tonsure, date of Easter, Benedictine Rule. For Saint Bede this was the final sign of unity from diversity, which was the main theme of his "Ecclesiastical History." Dunchadh is the titular saint of Killclocair, in the diocese of Armagh. His feast is still celebrated in Donegal on May 25; elsewhere it is March 24. He is the patron of sailors in Ireland.
http://www.orthodox-iona.co.uk/new_page_3.htm

Regarding Duncan, however I am more knowledgeable. It can be broken down into the Irish and Scott's version of the name - in Gaelic both very much the same, but in their Anglicization very much different.

Duncan, in this form, is actually a last name of Scottish origin that is in truth an English corruption of Scots Gaelic (much like the Ulster dialect of Irish Gaelic) Mac Dhonnchaidh, which translated into English would come to mean essentially: son of the brown warrior, or brown lord; brown meaning here dark skinned. This translation is valid in either Irish or Scott's Gaelic.

You will find Duncan in much use in parts of Ireland, but most especially with Ulster and there again with parts of counties Antrim, Down, Derry, Tyrone, and northern Armagh of Ulster, Ireland. The reason being that many of the modern-day citizens of those places are in fact descendants of "Scots Planters" - of the Elizabethan Plantations of Ulster - who were "Dissenters," as they came to be called by the Crown because they were Protestants, but dissented from the Anglican Church and were followers of Calvinism, or Presbyterianism.

Yet, one can find it in other places of Ireland and certainly amongst the American Irish. Generally, the personal name Donnchadha would be pronounced in a way that its English corruption would in fact be Donagh (Dough - NUH). However in Ireland you will find the Clan Mac Donagh compared to the Scots Clan Duncan. Check these Irish and Scottish Clan web sites: www.irishclans.com [irishclans.com] and www.tartans.com/hall.html [tartans.com] for the BASICS on Gaelic Clans and from there you can develop a greater search for the clan names in Ireland and Scotland that have the personal name of Donnchadh as its foundation and thus more info on the name in those areas. Also check out this Irish name site, which has a link to a Scottish name site: http://members.tripod.com/~roisindubh/

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Serge:

Thank you also. Based off of your reply, I would like to ask you some questions on the differences, if there be any/many, between the Russian Orthodox traditions and the other Orthodox traditions. I'll have to take some time in order to formulate them, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask you them in the near future.

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Anastasios:

Thanks for the info and especially this: "Oh and Donnchadh, Fr. Serge Kelleher in Ireland celebrates the Divine Liturgy in Irish sometimes. You might try to find him (he is online) and email him to see if he has produced a tape of it."

I will look this up and see what I can discover. When next I am in Ireland I just may stop in for a visit�if that is possible.

Thanks!

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Our Lady's Slave of Love/Angela:

Thanks for the info. Scotland is your adopted land huh? I've not yet been to Alba (Scotland), but I'd like to. I've heard the Scots are very hospitable people and that the craic is almost as good as in Ireland (ha, ha, ha).

Sl�n go f�ill,
Donnchadh Cr�ost�ir Don�l
� Meisc�ll Mag Eochadha,
AOH, KofC,
na Chlann Eoichadh �g

Hello!

Angela, thanks for your anecdote. (I object to the use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist unless there is a truly extraordinary need, but my esteem for you is unchanged. As you know, the Byzantine Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, don't have this.) It's a shame a Latin name like Lauds would turn off the youngsters — where is their sense of mystery, romance and continuity, like Donnchadh has with Gaelic?

Funny how people won't come to church if they won't "get' something. Seems instinctive. Perhaps the daily-Communion custom is built on this understandable instinct. (Grace builds on nature.) I like "getting' sacramentals too, like the blessed bread after Liturgy, unconsecrated but from the same loaf as the Sacrament, holy water and of course paper icons on bulletins, etc. (I actually don't take bulletins a lot of the time because I won't throw away an icon. What I don't or can't use — like if the picture is damaged — I privately burn.)

I take it you are a Scot? Or did you move to Scotland at some point? Don't want to make the mistake like one of the Aussie group The Seekers did when in concert in Edinburgh when he said, "It's so good to be back in England!' I haven't been as far north as Scotland but close — Teesside. And York, where the medieval city wall still stands (the one William of Wallace's Scots troops stormed in Braveheart).

From what I remember, the Roman Catholic Church in England is very Irish, understandable because of geography — you had a choice of Irish newspapers for sale in the narthex of the church! Is it like that in Scotland as well? I imagine it is as many Scots are nominal members of the Kirk (state Church of Scotland, Presbyterian).

Donnchadh, yes, Melkites not only use the Byzantine Rite but are the most Orthodox-oriented/least latinized of the large Byzantine Catholic Churches. They are the Catholic opposite number of the Arab Orthodox: the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, or as it is called in America, the Antiochian Orthodox Church. The Russian Catholic Church is just as Orthodox as the Melkites but a lot smaller.

Visit your local Greek or Russian Orthodox church to hear Vespers and Matins. You won't hear a lot of the same prayers as the Roman office but some will be familiar. Matins starts with "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will' three times, then the familiar words that open the Roman offices, from Psalm 50/51, "Lord, open my lips and my mouth shall show forth Your praise', twice. In the Byzantine Rite, the Magnificat is the morning canticle, sung at Matins; the Nunc dimittis — the canticle for Compline in your rite — is that of Vespers in the Byzantine.

Looking forward to your questions on different national Church usages in the Byzantine Rite but my knowledge isn't that extensive. I can offer a churchgoer's firsthand description of the Russian use as lived and compare what I see and hear to what I've experienced visiting other churches. The Russian version of the Byzantine chasuble (Greek phelonion or Russian felon) has a high-backed collar. Russian altar boys remove their vestment (sticharion/stichar — looks like a Latin dalmatic but longer) before going to Communion; men in minor orders (reader and subdeacon) on up receive in their vestments (cassock/podr'asnik and stichar, plus an orarion/stole on subdeacons). Many national/ethnic Churches have their very own chant that sounds different from the others. Russian music is very Westernized with its harmonies, based largely on Italian polyphony like Palestrina and on German chorales. Ruthenian church music is based on the folk music of the region and sounds like popular songs to Russian ears. Ukrainian music is along the same lines but with different tunes. Albanian, Greek and Arabic chants sound very similar and Middle Eastern with lots of minor-key stuff. The contrast between the European sound of Russian music and the non-Europeanness of many other Orthodox musics is one of the main differences.

Worshipped with Melkites for the first time this year while visiting a friend away from home and was knocked out by the beauty — I was among a mixed congregation of Arabs and non-Arabs, taking in the chant in three languages, Arabic, Greek and English. A powerful reminder that our religion wasn't Slavic to begin but was and still is Semitic. Salaam! (Peace.)

http://oldworldrus.com

Donnachadh

Thanks for that. Yes I am an adopted Scot [ quarter Scots, quarter Welsh and the rest Yorkshire but married to a Scot with a teeney bit of Portugese in him] A proper Heinz as you might say.

Actually the part of Glasow where I worship here is very Irish either Letterkenny or elswhere in Donegal. Mind you very little Gaelic is spoken and yes the craic is incredible.
Oh it's great fun !

Angela

Serge,
I do not propose to get myself into an argument with you - you'd win hands down - I'm no theologian nor am I a philosopher - just a convert[ Aaaargh some will remember how I hate the term, but there is no real alternative]
However may I comment on a few points you raised ?
<<I object to the use of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist unless there is a truly extraordinary need>>
I think most of us do but at times needs must prevail - eg 1 priest ,a little over 400 Communicants, a time slot of three quarters of an hour before a 5 min break and then another year group-- actually 7 Masses during the day for a Holiday of Obligation in a large Secondary School.
Or again a Parish with 2 priests - one of whom is a Hospital Chaplain on 24 hour call out, with 1 vigil Mass, 3 Sunday Morning Masses 2 Hospital Masses and 1 evening Mass every weekend where Communion is always given under both Species.
The use of Eucharistic Ministers can be essential. Speaking personally it is a great privilege to be able to help and give this service to my fellow parishioners and each time I am overwhelmed at the realisation that at that point I have the Body of my Lord or His Most Precious Blood in my hands -- "Lord I am not worthy ......." And by the way I find it amazing that people will turn away from me at the altar rail , not just because I am lay but also because I am female .

<<It�s a shame a Latin name like Lauds would turn off the youngsters � where is their sense of mystery, romance and continuity, like Donnchadh has with Gaelic? >>>
Modern day Scottish teenagers don't have a sense of mystery ! A pity but there you are and it is very difficult to get them involved in something "new"

<<I take it you are a Scot? Or did you move to Scotland at some point?>>
adopted [ through marriage] but quarter Scots, quarter Welsh and half Yorkshire and I moved here some 34 years ago with my Scottish husband - and he is your typical nominally Church of Scotland baptised, but non practicing, and regards himself as an atheist and is very proud of it

<<From what I remember, the Roman Catholic Church in England is very Irish, understandable because of geography � you had a choice of Irish newspapers for sale in the narthex of the church! >>
Actually worse here but the Irish papers are on sale in the local newsagents. Almost every second person, at least in my parish has a relative in Letterkenny - and they all know each other and their family histories !
Life can be interesting !

As you may have read I have at long last attended Divine Liturgy - in the Ukrainian Church and am longing to participate again.

Thanks for your forebearance with this long screed.

May Our Blessed Mother, Mother of us all, my Mistress keep us all in Her most tender care.

Angela

I'm 1/8 Scottish 1/8 Irish and 3/4 Eastern German, Polish and maybe some Ukrainian.

I carry the trait of Eastern European but my first name is Irish, my middle name is Irish and last name is Scottish! Man! My mom must be crazy!!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dear Serge,

Inquiring Malankar minds want to know: why?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Serge:
Russian altar boys remove their vestment (sticharion/stichar &#8212; looks like a Latin dalmatic but longer) before going to Communion;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Serge,

Inquiring Malankar minds want to know: why?



My guess is because they are not minor clergy (that is, in minor orders) but rather are substitutes for minor clergy. Those who actually are subdeacons and readers receive vested.

http://oldworldrus.com

While the liturgical hours are obviously important in the ongoing spiritual life of the community, I would like to suggest that the most important elements are the spiritual and corporal works of mercy as mandated by the Gospel.

For Morning Prayer I would suggest giving something to the poor on the street. For evening prayer, I would suggest giving some time to help the homeless shelter or other people-oriented service. Prayer is a most wonderful thing; but the needs of our brothers and sisters (and their children) is what's going to get us to the Lord. (and we pray while we do the service!!)

Let's not get too involved in the forms of prayer -- let's rather offer our services to our sisters and brothers in need. (Of course, the Byzantine mode of prayer is the best! --Nyuk, Nyuk!! Wink, wink!!)

Blessings!!!