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Why not post from a Byzantine Catholic perspective? How well known is this rosary? And is it used very much? Should Byzantine Catholics, given the revelation that this is her most important prayer, be undertaking to teach it to all Catholics?

It amazes me how much ire this conversation has stirred up. We are talking about prayer to the Theotokos here! Nothing more, nothing less. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Rosary or the Rule of the Theotokos as a private devotion, especially when it leads us closer to Christ through the intercession of Our Lady.

I'm not one to follow private revelation at all. From what I've read on the Rule of the Theotokos, there is a history to it. Whether or not it was revealed to a monk in the 8th Century does not really matter, and whether or not the Theotokos says it is more important than Akathists is not that important either. What matters is that we are drawn closer to Christ through the intercession of the Theotokos. Don't we pray for that every Sunday at the Divine Liturgy anyhow?

Besides, why are we so quick to dismiss the idea that the Theotokos did reveal this Rule to a monk in the Thebaid in the 8th Century? Don't we also piously believe that claim that the Angel Gabriel taught a monk to tie the knots that we use for our prayer ropes?

Plus, I fail to see how the Theotokos saying that this Rule is more important than the Akathists and Canons devoted to her is "bad theology." Not every Church has Akathists and Canons, but this Rule exists in every Church in some form or another...

Dear Phillip, There is another false "magical" promise attached to the "Five Prayers" which St Dimitri of Rostov tried to popularise, claiming they went back to the first centuries and had been forgotten. In themselves the Five Prayers are very beautiful but the promise attached to them is that Christ will appear at death and escort the soul to heaven. (Again, no toll houses, and for Catholics no Purgatory.) Of both these devotions it is the Five Prayers which ought to be recommended.

This link will take you to The Five Prayers and their promises.

Use the second scrolling section on the left and go almost to the bottom of the list.

http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/prayerbook/main.htm

And why particularly are the Five Prayers to be recommended over the Rule of the Theotokos?

Is it not possible for Our Lord and His Mother to attach certain graces to prayers, so long as our hearts and our lives conform to Christ? Does Christ not attach the grace of transforming bread and wine into His Body and Blood to the prayers and actions of the Liturgy regardless of the heart of the priest and/or worshipers? How much simpler to attach a grace like conducting a soul to heaven to a particular devotion (and always with the proviso that our lives are continually being conformed to Christ)!

Plus we can be devoted to these prayers and rules while simultaneously being skeptical to the "promises" attached to them.

One more note. I've heard from a number of folks that a form of the Rule of the Theotokos is practiced on Mt. Athos daily. Never having been to Mt. Athos, I cannot confirm that based off of first-hand experience. But I have been told this by folks I've known who have been there.

People interpret the Promises as guaranteeing salvation. Not a bad deal!

Phillip, I have lived on the Holy Mountain as a monk, admittedly for short periods, but did not encounter either the Rosary of the Mother of God or the Five Prayers. Not saying that nobody was practising them, just that I never encountered them. Philotheou, Panteleimon, Hilandar.

It's interesting that you mention the Holy Mountain. No monk there would alter his Prayer Rule by one iota without a blessing from his spiritual father. The same actually applies to any monk or nun anywhere.


Could you say something about their use in the Melkite Church?

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

May I suggest one good reason?

I just returned from my Saturday men's prayer group. We meet every Saturday at 8 a.m. for an hour and discuss various topics that have scriptural references relevant to the lives of men living in the world.

Having read the Five Prayers and compred them to the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos, may I suggest that they are shorter and thus more able to be made a habit than the longer Rule. The men I pray with discussed the difficulty of beginning and sustaining a regular prayer rule and time in their lives. Many are professional men and businessmen who begin their every waking minute focusing on clients and business matters. They admit that many times they cannot seem to find even five minutes to pray. A long prayer rule is out of the question because they would give up after looking at it. They admit they would love to have fixed and regular time(s) for prayer but they just don't know how to find the time with family, work, and other obligations. These are men who are focused on the Faith and living it out. These are men who want to be a good example to their families, their colleagues, and to the world around them. It's the struggle to get started.

Then there's the danger that was mentioned once before in another thread of trying to incorporate too many things into our daily prayer rule and finally collapsing and losing it all due to the fact that we do live in the world and have so many demands on us. And those demands seem to increase with each year of age.

So, not having any authority, but having struggled to keep a prayer rule for over 40 years, I would recommend a shorter, focused set of prayers over a longer one so that I could memorize them and pray them even if I could not stop in a closed place--but could recite them as I drove my car or took a break at work or at some other time, thus keeping them alive each day rather than losing them by not using them each day. In fact, that has been my lfe. I have memorized the prayers in my prayerbook and carry them with me as I have walked to work or had a quiet moment at work to pray. In my profession, there has neveen a fixed time to begin the day or end the day so this has been theonly way I can pray. Adding too many things has been something that I have had experience with and the temptation to just stop it all.

Bob

Father bless!!

I don't believe in guarantees. I don't believe that I, as a creature can hold my Creator to any promise. I trust His Mercy. As one of the Desert Fathers said on his deathbed, (paraphrase) "I don't know if I have begun to live the Christian life or obey the Lord's commandments. But I trust Him and His judgments. I trust that He will have mercy on me."

Bob

Dear Theophan/Bob, I ran a test with 10 Hail Marys. 150 Hail Marys in Slavonic need 40 minutes.

150 Hail Marys in English requires at least 45 minutes. The length was recommended by both St. Seraphim of Sarov and St. Dmitri Rostov to shorten the Rule to 50 Hail Marys (requiring about 15 minutes), or even fewer as time and spiritual needs allow.

I've yet to understand the resistance to this prayer rule. It is simply a prayer rule among a variety of prayer rules. Is the resistance based primarily on the "promise" of help at the time of death? If so, I can understand. I've known plenty of Roman Catholics who at least start out praying the Rosary (or wearing the brown scapular, or praying the Divine Mercy chaplet, etc.) because of the "promises" and indulgences attached to it. But many are simply led to these devotions out of genuine love for the Theotokos and gratitude for what she did on our behalf. And many who begin these devotions because of the promises are often led to the deeper level of love.

If such are the objections, then I can understand.

But if one is rejecting the Rule because it is perceived as a Latinization, well then I have no response. Many will shout "Latinization" where none exists. The Rule has never been presented as something that was deliberately kept secret for a select few and has only now been breaking through at the popular level. It was presented by St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Dmitri Rostov, and others as a Rule that was forgotten over time and that divine Providence has seen fit to bring back to our ecclesial memory. If some don't want to pray it, then they are under no obligation to do so, just as if some don't want to pray the Jesus Prayer they are under no obligation to do so. So what's the big deal?

Father Ambrose:

Father bless!!

I'd say that forty minutes is way beyond what the average person can find the time to do. I proceed from the understanding that this devotional prayer is in addition to one's regular morning and evening prayers.

From my group's discussion this morning, the consensus seems to be that my colleagues can't seem to find fifteen minutes in the morning or evening to pray.

Asking for your blessing and kissing your holy right hand,

Bob

Dear Phillip, Father David Moser posted something very sensible....

"Should the use of this prayer rule be discredited or prohibited? Not necessarily - but neither should it be promoted as a standard when it is nothing more than the personal practice of the New Hieromartyr Martyr Seraphim (Zvezdinsky) as pointed out here. I do think that those who wish to talk about this practice need to make it clear that they are not speaking of a prayer rule practiced by St Seraphim of Sarov, but of a different St. Seraphim who is one of the new martyrs of Russia and whose connection to St Seraphim of Sarov is tenuous at best. When it comes to these personal practices that are received from a spiritual father, I think it is best to recall the words of St Macarii of Optina, "What I write for you, I write for you alone, and I must ask you to refrain from passing any of it on to others as a general rule of conduct for all. It is nothing of the kind." (Russian Letters of Spiritual Direction p.25)

Fr David Moser"

I could well be wrong but to judge by the lack of response here (where there are almost 5,000 members) the Byzantine Catholics have not much interest in this rosary. As somebody mentioned, before Liturgy they will pray the regular Roman Catholic rosary.

A reply from Russia says everybody is aware that pilgrims to Diveeveo sing 150 Hail Marys when they walk around St Seraphim's ditch. It is the custom there for pilgrims. But he is not aware of spiritual fathers who incorporate 150 Hail Marys into the Prayer Rules of their spiritual children.

Bless Father,

Father Moser is completely wrong on this score. St Seraphim Zvezdinsky took his prayer rule to the Theotokos from St Seraphim of Sarov - this is in the book, "Staretz Zechariah, an early Soviet Saint." It is also in several articles in "Orthodox Word" published by Holy Trinity Monastery. There are Russian websites on St Seraphim of Sarov on the internet that state this matter-of-factly.

This prayer rule is also in a number of Russian Orthodox prayerbooks that I've purchased over the years. It is completely voluntary, but significant enough to be in the Orthodox Encyclopedia.

St Seraphim of Sarov himself DID insist that his spiritual children recite the Rule of the Theotokos daily. While this practice is far from universal in Orthodoxy, to be sure, it is popular in circles that promote the veneration of St Seraphim of Sarov, especially Diveyevo Monastery. Fr. Moser and yourself should write directly to it for further information.

The essence of both the Rule of the Theotokos and the Rosary is, and always will be, the recitation of 150 Hail Mary's divided into decimas/decades in honour of a set of 15 events in the life of Christ and the Theotokos. The events can and have varied. St Parthenius of the Kiev Caves Lavra, for instance, recited 300 Hail Mary's daily or two Rules of the Theotokos. The encyclopedia also makes mention of Russian Startsi who used the Hail Mary/Bohoroditse Divo very frequently, like the Jesus Prayer and these were called "Theotokos Elders."

Again, that is what I take from Orthodox spiritual history. And I, for one, have deigned to make it my own. I recite Canons and Akathists and don't see what the problem is.

Fr. Moser's final comment about certain prayer rules given by Elders has NOTHING to do with St Seraphim of Sarov's Rule of the Theotokos that was once practiced privately in both East and West (according to his teachings and those of others, especially noted in Staretz Zechariah).

Also, the Rule of the Five Prayers by St Dmitri of Rostov - a beautiful private devotion. It is based on a Western Catholic chaplet, in fact, in honour of the five Sorrows of the Mother of God (there were chaplets to her five sorrows, or seven sorrows or even 15 sorrows).

St Dmitri loved Western devotions, he would pray a Hail Mary, for instance, at the beginning of each hour, night and day, as was popular in the West. He also had a devotion to . . . the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God, wore a medal of such and belonged to an Orthodox Brotherhood of the Immaculate Conception in Kiev which took the "bloody vow" to defend to the death the Immaculate Conception.

He also prayed the Rule of the Theotokos - even more than once a day and also had a translation of the 15 prayers of St Bridget and the Little Office of the Virgin Mary which are on the internet in Russian on a site that I used to frequent some years back. I don't have the link for it now, unfortunately.

This is a devotion that proceeds from following the Elder St Seraphim of Sarov. No one is forced to do that.

As for your comment on the Theotokos and bad theology - I wish you would just withdraw that. It is just inappropriate.

Alex