www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Rule of the Mother of God

Bravo, Master Beadsman, Bravo!



Alex

Another reply just in.... from a priest-monk-confessor. Spiritual Fathers in Russia will instruct people to incorporate the "Optina 500" into their Prayer Rule if they have more available time free for prayer after completing their normal Prayer Rule. Any further extensions to the daily Rule will involve instruction on more focused used of the Prayer of the Heart.

Has the Optina 500 been explained somewhere on Byzcath?

It simply is bad theology, Alex. The claim is that after, let's say, 1,800 years of the Church's prayer to the Mother of God She appears in Russia in some unverified revelation and says that the most important prayer to her is a rosary devised in the 18th century!

How would one contact the Brotherhood today? The Moscow Patriarchate maintains a list of Orthodox Brotherhoods and other organisations approved by the Church.

Obscure origins, perhaps. Limited historical resources on the topic, sure. But all that has been pointed out here is that the origins of the Rule are obscure. There is nothing in that which equates to bad theology.

Again, the origins of the Rule are believed to be around the 8th Century, not the 18th. The fact that it fell out of popularity for some time, even some centuries, is of little consequence. Many things come and go in Church history, only to reappear again at the least expected moments.

Our dear brother, Alex, has provided us with a number of resources that he has read (and translated) in the original Russian. Personally I am more inclined to accept those sources than any others presented. But that's just me. I just don't understand why this seems to threaten folks' devotion to the Theotokos so much.

I myself totally reject the idea in the quoted sources that the Mother of God revealed (to whom?) that the rosary of Saint Seraphim is far more important than other forms of prayer. I shall ignore her revelation and not encourage my people to replace Akathists with this rosary.

It would, btw, be an enormous help if this revelation could be verified.

It would be of much assistance if Alex would provide the Russian original.

His All-Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew speaks to an Italian Catholic paper on the Immaculate Conception.

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/118281/Patriarch%20Bartholomew%20on%20the

Dear Father Ambrose,

You make assumptions that no one here has put forward. You also assume that the rosary is something that was devised by someone in the 18th century.

That is simply an uninformed assumption on the rosary. First of all, it was not called that in the time of St Dominic, but the Psalter of the Mother of God - it had other names as well.

The history of the rosary is very rich and deep. Let me just say that you are both mistaken and uninformed on that.

There are doubtless many resources on the internet on the rosary, on St Seraphim of Sarov and on the Rule of the Theotokos.

It is just that I don't ever make it a practice to consult such topics on the internet.

As a college teacher, I expect my students to do primary research in the library with written sources. The internet can only be used ... well, whatever.

That is just one aspect of your point in your post. We live in a democracy and one can believe what one wishes.

Alex

Yes, Father, I've read this as well.

That does not mean that there were not Orthodox teachers and saints in history that both understood and accepted the Western Immaculate Conception doctrine.

Fr. John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) mentions this at several points in his writings. The Kyivan Baroque era of Orthodoxy of the 17th-18th centuries is what we are talking about.

It is replete with devotions to the Immaculate Conception (indeed, St Dmitri of Rostov was called to stand before the Russian Holy Synod to give answer for his views on this and some other topics).

In the life of St Dmitri of Rostov by Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko, which is in Ukrainian, there are numerous examples of his Western devotions, as also in the life of St Peter Mohyla.

The "Passia" is one example of the way the Kievan Baroque era adopted a Western devotion to Orthodox liturgical life.

Alex

Dear Father Ambrose,

I don't believe the Orthodox Encyclopedia is online as yet.

I don't know if Staretz Zechariah is on line or a number of other sources.

Even if I knew how to type out the sections I've consulted in Cyrillic, I doubt if you'll believe me.

If my students can find such resources in libraries and bookstores . . .

I picked up a number of resources from my local "Kniga" Russian language bookstore.

I'm sorry but that's the best I can do.

And, again, at no time has anyone, not me, nor the Most Holy Mother of our Lord, God and Saviour in any private revelation ever suggested replacing liturgical prayers such as akathists, canons and the like with the Rule of Prayer of 150 Hail Mary's.

That is an assumption you make, Venerable Father.

Alex

Alex, where may I find the primary sources on the rosary of Saint Seraphim? Please share your resources with us.

Venerable Father,

I'm finding it very difficult to relate to your posts here. It must be my fault, it must be my inability to grasp what you are getting at.

The Orthodox Brotherhoods of the Immaculate Conception existed in the Kievan Baroque era, in the time, therefore, of St Dmitri (Tuptalenko), Metropolitan of Rostov and of St Peter Mohyla, Metropolitan of Kiev and a host of others.

They were tied to the Kievan Mohyla Institute and its students at that time. They aren't around now - I apologise for giving the impression that they were still around.

Alex

You wrote:

Could we back away from the discussion between Alex and myself and invite Byzantine Catholics to write something.

What emphasis does your parish place on the rosary of Saint Seraphim?

How often do you pray it in your private prayers?

Does your family pray it at home?

Father Ambrose,

I actually translated and wrote out the entry in the Orthodox encyclopedia.

There are articles in the Orthodox Word on this, I have it somewhere and would have to fish it out.

Any book in Russian especially that discusses the life of St Seraphim of Sarov would discuss his devotion to the Rule of the Theotokos.

We won't find "rosary" as a reference (although there is an article on the site "semeyskie.ru" which is Old Rite where the use of "rosary" in the West is defended).

One may consult Diveyevo Monastery which can provide you with references - as you are an Orthodox Priest-Monk, I'm sure they will go the extra verst to help with this.

What is even more important here, however, is the way in which we are to interpret a private revelation to a monastic saint.

I know how the Roman Catholic Church deals with them, the limitations it places on them, even when they lead to liturgical feasts (e.g. Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Fatima, the Fatima decade prayer etc.).

How Orthodoxy deals with them - well, that is something I'm not familiar with, but assumed it is similar, while not identical to the way the Catholic West deals with them.

I'm not Orthodox, of course, so I don't want to overstep propriety in discussing St Seraphim of Sarov, an Orthodox saint with a definite universal appeal, the Rule of the Theotokos and related issues.

It's surprising to me that this matter seems to be getting a first hearing from some here.

But, to be honest, I feel that there might be even something else afoot here and it doesn't sit well with me.

St Seraphim of Sarov and the Rule of the Theotokos play a very central role in my spiritual life.

I was never shocked by what I read about this in the historical/devotional literature.

I can understand how a (private) form of prayer like the Rule of 150 Mary's said by individuals might be valued, via a private revelation, by the Mother of God.

At no time was there anything in that private revelation that suggested the Most Holy Theotokos rejects other forms of public prayer etc.

Believe me, I had no intention of this matter becoming such a "main event" here.

I'm really not qualified in any spiritual sense nor do I have the blessing from anyone to take on these matters here or anywhere.

I feel it is inappropriate for me as an EC layperson to argue with a Venerable Priest-Monk. If you say you don't believe this and that if the Mother of God actually did say this, that this is bad theology - you know better than I.

I surrender the argument to you, Venerable Father, and will leave it at that.

Asking your forgiveness,

the sinful Alex