www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Rule of the Mother of God

Bless Father,

They don't use the term "purgatory" but we pray assiduously for the souls of the faithful departed.

I guess we try to follow Orthodox praxis in this regard. I just have trouble understanding it with respect to purgatory sometimes - have been a uniate for too long . . .

May I ask you a question, Father? You say "Holy Souls" with devotion and compunction.

What do you mean when you use this term? Do you use it to refer to the Latin devotion to the Holy Souls or. . . .how?

Alex

Bless Father,

Yes, Metropolitan Kallistos never said he ever accepted the Immaculate Conception - only that an Orthodox Christian could not be branded a heretic if he or she privately accepted it.

Alex

That is what St Seraphim of Sarov said about a revelation he received from the Most Holy Theotokos.

And it is given in Staret Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint and in the Encycopedia of Orthodoxy.

If those two sources are OK with it, so am I. Again, St Seraphim himself prescribed akathists and canons for the Nuns of Diveyevo to recite in their prayer rule - a prayer rule he himself said was also revealed to him by the Most Holy Theotokos.

Alex

Is Metropolitan Kallistos' opinion on this matter binding on all Orthodox Christians?

You mean real Orthodox Christians who are in actual communion with Orthodoxy?

This opens up the issue about theologoumena in Orthodoxy and when is a private theological opinion acceptable for an Orthodox Christian (please see above) to hold.

There have been Orthodox saints who have held the IC and Purgatory - that didn't seem to block their canonization as saints nor have there been moves to take them out of the calendar.

And is there more than one way to understand the IC and Purgatory?

And what does any of this have to do with the Rule of the Theotokos?

Alex

Devotion to the Holy Souls was very prominent in our youth. Our fathers belonged to (Purgatorial) Archfraternities of the Holy Souls and the prayers of the Holy Souls were seen as very strong. Their intercession was often sought and especially for serious issues -a mother dying and in great pain, a brother who was a hardened sinner. I imagine that all this is unknown to the recent generations.

This kind of devotion is not paralleled in Orthodoxy which has no belief in Holy Souls in Purgatory. But, as you know, The Orthodox pay great attention to the souls of the deceased and quite a volume of prayers ascend daily.

When one of the convert Antiochian priests in the UK wrote a handbook for converts and adopted the same view as Met Kallistos his bishop ordered its removal from future editions.

I unwittingly gave a copy to a converting Pentecostal minister and was shocked when he showed me that paragraph.

'Twas thyself who introduced them. :-)

Browsing through ancient threads, I see you have a great interest in Kievan theology, particularly the IC and Purgatory, and often bring them into various threads.

Repeat post deleted.

When we look beyond the sophisticated arguments about prelates in either Kiev or Oxford, we bump up against the bedrock teaching of Orthodoxy that:

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as all of humanity.

She was conceived in the same state as you and I, as the Dalai Lama and Barak Obama.

Alex or Father Ambrose,

Can one or both of you review this thread to determine how it can be split into new threads with different topics? If you can find the first post that should be broken off into new thread(s) and PM me the # I can do the splitting sometime on Friday. The thread # is at the top right of each post. For example, the thread # for this post is #400247.

Thanks,
John

Dear John, I am content to let the discussions on the IC and on Purgatory fade. I suppose we could revive existing threads if we wanted to continue talking.

OK. You have last word on the thread.

Posters are welcome to start new threads should they wish to discuss any of the topics above.