www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ukraine -- End Game

Alex,

I join you in mourning the loss of those who fought to free Ukraine and rejoice that the oppressors are exposed. I find it telling that in Kharkiv the russophiles are protecting the statue of Lenin...

Dear Stuart,

One thing you could say about Yanukovych - he knew how to live very well, even if at others' expense!

No one wonder he and his ilk are against monarchy - they live better than kings!

Alex

Dear Father Deacon,

It is because the Church, EC and Orthodox, stood with the people in the streets that it is trusted above any politician by them.

I will never forget what our Bishop said two weeks ago when, during his sermon, he read an email from a protester in Kyiv: "I was confessed in the streets of Kyiv, I received Holy Communion in the streets of Kyiv and now I can die in the streets of Kyiv."

Also, a lecturer of the Ukrainian Catholic University in Lviv was shot and killed by a sniper's bullet to the head.

Eternal Memory!

Alex

Yes. It is proper to defend oneself. Sadly, both sides have been the aggressor at times during this tragedy. Many lives have been lost. I believe that much of the bloodshed could have been prevented through continued (albeit prolonged) peaceful protest. But alas, it did not unfold in this manner.


I have read about this. I pray there is a lasting peace.


We will all face the consequences for our actions if we do not repent. I pray that he repents.



Yes. As I said.....I pray for a true independence and a genuine peace. I have Ukrainian friends who are very near and dear to my heart.


I do not know much of Thomas Aquinas....nor did I study him much in my Catholic days. I have been taught that it is only proper to direct one's anger against the Devil.


Yes. I have read about this also.


Thank God.


Yes. They supported a peaceful protest.


Yes. I pray that he repents.


Perhaps I am. I pray that I am wrong. Time will tell.


This tragedy is very sad. I keep the living and the dead from Ukraine in my prayers.




I had a Ukrainian Orthodox priest as a spiritual father. He was a very wise and holy man. He dedicated his life to the suffering families from the Chernobyl disaster. I helped him and matushka whenever I could. There is a special place in my heart for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. So yes....sometimes I am very sensitive.



I'm not a very big fan of sarcasm. Nevertheless, I would never be worthy to be anyone's spiritual father...as I am the worst and most wretched of sinners.

One wonders how he was able to get away with such opulence while 35 percent of the population lived below the poverty line.

It wasn't just him - - try these - from the residence of the former Chief Prosecutor

Scroll down to the Photographs [4ubuk.blogspot.se]

Wow!!! Even the multitude of Icons and other religious items look to be worth a small fortune!

I hope a canonical solution can be reached to allow legitimate Ukrainian Orthodox autocephaly but permit those wishing to remain under the MP to do so. That may be too much to request, but the OCA precedent whereby the Patriarchal and now the ROCOR are coexisting is a model of sorts... Of course, we Orthodox don't all accept that as a given, but it is a precedent none the less....

Dear Recluse,

Actually, I was not being sarcastic at all (nor would I be regarding a spiritual subject like this).

I would love to have had you as a spiritual Father - what you've said only confirms your deep spirituality.

Some time ago, a young fellow who became a priest asked me to be his spiritual counselor.

Rather than feeling flattered, I was frightened out of my wits.

You are obviously someone who has been called to share more deeply in the Life of Christ our God and to drink more fully of the Waters of the Spirit.

Alex

Wow indeed!

Quite nice after all.

At least the fellow has a sense of real style . . .

And I'm quite serious.

Alex

Holy cow, those oligarchs were really into 'Tsarist Revival Chic.' Ugly...... I cannot imagine Putin's mancave....but then he has access to the 'real deal.'..

Dear DMD,

That's a very important question you raise with equally important observations.

If the Moscow Patriarchate could ever accept the Ukrainian Orthodox aspiration for a Patriarchate of their own which is independent of it, then something could come of it.

I believe that the uncanonical KP will capitalize on the situation as it is now, however, and will gain many more members.

In addition, the UOC-MP is on really shaky ground right now (and His Holiness Patriarch Kirill knows this better than anyone).

The choice for a locum tenens for the UOC-MP was a very bad one, someone who will polarize the Ukrainians within the UOC-MP and will push them to the brink.

Archbishop Oleksandr (Drabenko) would have been the obvious choice to be Locum Tenens and then to succeed when the time came.

The UOC-MP is its own worse enemy in this instance. Archbishop Oleksandr is someone Ukrainians of all stripes respect (yes, even EC's). As you know, he was "penanced" a while ago for, as many believed, being "too Ukrainian." This was all removed in time.

It is, one would suppose, natural for the Russophile wing of the UOC-MP to close ranks at this time.

They also made the mistake of emphasizing ministry to wounded police while ignoring the many who were killed and wounded in the streets by the police.

In any event, we shall see. But the movement for one national Ukrainian Orthodox Church is gaining momentum in a way like never before.

As for canonicity, it really won't be a priority for the Ukrainian Orthodox right now - especially since they understand "canonicity" to mean whatever the Moscow Patriarchate approves of.

And when the Ukrainian Orthodox gather together in one very large but uncanonical church - what will World Orthodoxy do then, when faced with such a fait accomplit? That will be interesting to see.

They would naturally be inclined to focus exclusively on the Ecumenical Patriarch as their overseer - he is very popular among them and Ukrainian Orthodox (and Catholics) feel right at home with him.

Fascinating stuff.

Alex

Dear DMD,

Oh, come on, those are nice digs and very nice icons!

Ostentatious, yes. Over the top, yes.

A bit cold, all right.

But not at all bad.

If you're not careful, Recluse is going to come after you! (kidding, kidding)

Alex

Indeed, and the recent paper, 'Primus Sine Paribus' http://www.patriarchate.org/documents/first-without-equals-elpidophoros-lambriniadis which is causing much consternation within the ranks of the supporters of the Moscow Patriarchate is ever the more interesting in light of the current situation - as is the pan Orthodox conference called for by the Ecumenical Patriarch scheduled for March 2014. I suspect Moscow will NOT participate in that meeting. In that Ukraine is the source of a significant portion of the Russian church's vocations, collections and regular members, its loss to the prestige of the MP and Russia herself is incalculable . They won't let go without a fight, and I fear that they would risk its destruction from within rather than capitulate.

Dear DMD,

Absolutely.

In fact, western Ukraine, when it was part of the Moscow Patriarchate, was the main source for vocations and funds for the MP - especially the Ternopil Region (it has always been the most religious area with 95% of all people declaring themselves for the UGCC and also for the UAOC - prior to that, priestly vocations went to the MP and we even have priests here who were formerly trained in Moscow).

This is also why the Moscow Patriarchate, and one can easily understand why this is so, feels that western Ukraine was taken away from it via Western chicanery through the resurrection of the UGCC.

The problem is that while "Uniatism" was indeed imposed by force on the Ruthenian/Ukrainian/Belarusyan people in the seventeenth century - the UGCC has become "our Church" for the people of western Ukraine over time.

And the fact remains that there will always be converts to it from Orthodoxy, atheism and other faiths. (And there will be those in the UGCC who will leave it for other faiths too, of course).

My own Ukrainian school teacher, a die-hard Orthodox Christian who actually wanted to fail me because I called her out for her quite public attack against St Josaphat (you understand ), joined the UGCC after her personal audience with Patriarch-Confessor Josyf Cardinal Slipyj.

I had a personal audience with him too - he wanted me to be a priest . . .

Alex