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I'm not sure if this topic belongs here. But because this section deals with theology and monasticism I thought there may be due correlation to the topic I'm about to discuss.

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'To give protection against anger, practice tolerance and patience...' "the words of my lama come to my mind"... 'Develop acceptance of all situations, all people, without judgment, experience them free from limiting thoughts.' -Ani Pachen (Sorrow Mountain: The Journey of a Tibetan Warrior Nun)

Eloquent words of spiritual teaching so common in Buddhism

'Regard everything as though it is a dream. Everything is ephemeral, ungovernable, and hollow. Work with the essential nature of your mind, pure and radiant. Keep your mind clear and aware in each moment.
'All activity should be done with one intention. To help, and not harm, others. Be gentle, be kind, be compassionate, be generous to everyone including yourself.' - Ani Pachen

'In the boundless panorama of the visible universe, recognize whatever shapes appear, whatever sounds vibrate as nothing but prjections of your mind, ilusory and unreal. Without grasping at anything, rest in the peace of an awareness that transcends all concepts. This is the heart of the practice.' - a spiritual text owned and studied by Ani Pachen

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There is a small Buddhist nation - I can't remember the nation - where the leader of the country has been famously quoted as saying: 'I am not concerned with the gross national product of my country. I am concerned with the gross national happiness of my country.'

It seems to me, from my observation, that in Christianity the forelorn struggle is to distinguish between "good" & "bad". In the process all aspects of Christian societies are effected by this determination of good and bad that translates even into "good people", "bad people". From fuedalism to capitalism the Christian society must determine who is "good" and who is "bad" (some may prefer the words better or worst). Good ultimately meaning men of the "moment" - attributes of education, financial stability, mastery of social norms and customs, high status in society. Bad ultimately meaning men of no moment - attributes of lack of education, financial instibility, novice of social norms and customs, lack of status in society.

The end result of this seems to be a pushing aside of the final Christian theology of all human beings be "good" at point verge. The point in which God Almighty is their final and sole existence of that point of their humanity. Meaning God 'rests' in all men.

The Buddhist in at least one Buddhist society has chosen to place the value of human life and happiness above that of oligarchy success and/or democratic competition of winners and lossers. Where no Christian soceity on this earth has chosen to attempt such a monumental task. To the contriary The United States of America is offering to divide up shares in Iraqi oil and hand out weapon deals to all volunters that will participate in killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's to protect a few rich Christian (i.e. good) Americans investment in oil.

It occurs to me how at the heart of what Christianity teaches. The only real Christian society today can be found in monastic life. In theory married couples and family life could form a due Christian society but only if they lived willingly in communal life, one that required education for the purpose of being of better help to other and society, not for self intrests of status and greed. It would require communal life of sharing, goods and health care.

Related to my post in theology of satan, a question could be raised: who really comes in the name of Christianity?

Thoughts to ponder, debate, or even forget if it pleasures one.

Justin

I've always admired the wonderful ascetism and monasticism in the Buddhist religion... this could be something that unites us but maybe it's the only one.
There's not a place for Jesus Christ in Buddhism, there's not a place for God in Buddhism. Buddhism is mainly an antropocentric philosophy, its nature is totally selfish, it is totally opposed to christianity in its understanding of suffering (while Christ decided to suffer for the remissions of our sins, the Budhists just say that you have to leave the world and not to help your brothers).
Buddhism is a false religion.

The "small Buddhist nation" is Bhutan.

I would agree with you, from what I know of Buddhism, that it is anthropocentric - the person of man as it's final and chief aim. But I think it is rather disingenuous to label Buddhism as a selfish religion. At any rate Buddhism highly values suffering, suffering that is for freedom from what they call "cravings". This would not be much different then Christianity. However you would be refering to Christian concept of redemptive suffering. Here Buddhism parts some with Christianity, but not totally, for it my understanding that is the purpose of the Dali Lama, a soul that chooses to return to humanity in it's sufferance, instead of enjoying the fruits of a state or realm of Heaven, so as to lead other humans to Nirvana and help releaving suffering in this world.

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All that aside what would be others conclusion of my small analysis of Christianity found in Christian statehood?

Justin

Thank you C.T.287

Justin

"One of master Gasan's monks visited the university in Tokyo. When he returned, he asked the master if he had ever read the Christian Bible. �No,� Gasan replied, �please read some of it to me.
The monk opened the Bible to the Sermon on the Mount in St. Matthew, and began reading. After reading Christ's words about the lilies in the field, he paused. Master Gasan was silent for a long time. �Yes,� he finally said, �whoever uttered these words is an enlightened being. What you have read to me is the essence of everything I have been trying to teach you here!"

http://www.heartlandsangha.org/parallel-sayings.html

It proof is in the puddin. Similar in appear, but not in depth. :p

I shouldn't had said "forlorn struggle". I wasn't certain but I was pretty sure the word had a different meaning then what it actually does - I decided to look in the dictionary to make sure.

Forlorn - carries a more negative meaning then what I meant. So just read it as *struggle*. I don't think I'll edit it. It's good to sometimes suffer in your mistakes, at least a little while.

Justin

If I may add a couple of small clarifications. First, Buddhism does not claim to be a religion or a philosophy but, rather, a way of life. The goal of Buddhism is totally egocentric (from the Greek meaning "I at the center") -- all efforts strive at self illuminiation through techniques that elimiinate the "distractions" of the world.

While this, in itself, is the antithesis of Christianity, many aspects of Buddhism are quite consistent with Christianity. The reason for this is that all Truth comes from the same source. There are elements of Truth in Buddhism, and those elements can make Buddhism seem very attractive to people.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Dear Friends,

Yes, Thomas Merton greatly loved and understood well Buddhism and the Eastern disciplines (REALLY Eastern ).

Dialogue between Catholics, Orthodox and Buddhists in Asia has produced much positive spiritual fruit. Christian Zen temples are places where meditation on the bible can be done in silence and according to the discipline of Buddhism.

Asian Christian church art sometimes portray Christ as a Buddha in the lotus position and otherwise imitate closely the Asian style of architecture.

I have some Buddhist beads (108 in total) that are handy for saying the Jesus Prayer. They come with two strings attached with moveable beads to count the rounds.

The Tibetans have always fascinated me - their religion is a combination of Buddhism with their native pagan traditions of the Bon.

Something is to be said about meditation in one of their robes, with beads and incense and candles in a still space before one's Icon corner.

Buddhist traditions and forms can be fused with Christianity. The spirit of detachment from the material world and the prized moral life are truly an "Old Testament" or prelude to Christ in the New.

I agree with Maximus that Christianity comes to Buddhist countries too fused with our Western pagan materialism and values.

Perhaps Buddhism has something to teach Christians in this regard?

A Catholic missionary in Japan wanted to teach the Japanese the rosary and gave a sermon about the great gift of the "West" to Asia in the beads . . .

A Japanese catechist later approached him and said, "Father, we Japanese have been using prayer-beads for thousands of years - and the prayer we recite on them is longer than the Our Father . . ."

Alex

Dear Maximus,

This just in . . .

An excellent story about a Buddhist master who says that most Westerners who seek out Buddhism and say they are Buddhists, don't really know what Buddhism is about as they don't know what their Christian heritage is about either:

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=29773

Sounds, ommm, great

Alex

I'm sorry, Alex, but I must take issue. We should not blur the lines between Christianity and Buddhism. Portraying Christ as a Buddha? That is blasphemy in my book. Just because Eastern Christians use incense, prayer beads and like to chant; doesn't change the fact that Buddhism is a false religion whose followers are going down the path which leads to destruction. I hate to sound like a Protestant, but Scripture is crystal clear when it says that Salvation is through Christ ALONE. And I don't think that mixing Buddhist tradition with Christian Tradition is good, either. Our Tradition is not lacking. We don't need Buddhist influence.

Anyway, it's nice to speak with you again:)

Columcille

Portraying Christ as a Buddha? That is blasphemy in my book.

"Buddha" only means "Enlightened One"...do you deny that Christ was the Enlightened One par excellence? I would think that, in being portrayed as such, Christ is simply sitting in a position of meditation common to people in the East (not the West ). I don't see how that's blasphemous at all...did Christ not pray?

Just because Eastern Christians use incense, prayer beads and like to chant; doesn't change the fact that Buddhism is a false religion whose followers are going down the path which leads to destruction.

I've met many Hindus (and a few Buddhists), as well as atheists, agnostics, and others, who were more Christian than I will ever be. And I've met Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, who seemed filled with evil. I would hate for someone to think I was headed down the path to destruction by following a false religion.

In the end, Christ saves everyone, whether they know it or not. If you're holy, great. If you're not, then you better shape up. This doesn't preclude us from sharing the Gospel...share away, we are commanded to do so. But there is no need to hit people over the head about how wrong they are, especially when their conduct sometimes makes us look like heretics and apostates...

And I don't think that mixing Buddhist tradition with Christian Tradition is good, either. Our Tradition is not lacking. We don't need Buddhist influence.

Have you ever thought about it being a culture thing rather than a religion thing? The Orthodox tradition lacks nothing, and yet that didn't stop the Indian Church from adopting certain customs which Hindus practice as their own, since it was more a cultural thing than a religious thing. In India, we have pictures of Christ and the saints as Indians, and, minus the multiple appendages, weapons, and other things, they look like Hindu icons. I love it. I want to get some of those. I don't think such things are bad. It's more of a cultural thing than anything else. Don't knock what you may not fully understand.

Dear Columcille,

And a good day to you too, Big Guy!

Well, no one is suggesting that Buddhist religious philosophy supplant Christ!

This has to do with inculturation.

Look at the like of St Herman of Alaska and of St Innocent, Enlightener of the Aleuts.

They did not bother with trying to change the folkloric sayings and culture of the people they were bringing to Christ through the Orthodox Church.

I grew up near a place where French Jesuits preached to the Indians.

An Indian told one of the missionaries about how the entire world rests on the back of a turtle.

The Jesuit responded by telling him he had come to preach about the God who created that turtle . . .

Buddhism, as Bl. Seraphim Rose (a former Buddhist himself) explained, was a reaction against the pantheon of Hinduism. It was a reform movement aimed at moral improvement, meditation and detachment from materialism.

Everything else, including the various cultic aspects of Buddhism, are incidental.

Portraying Christ as a "Buddha" means to portray Him as the "Enlightened One" and as the Enlightener. It is not to portray Him "instead of" Gautama Buddha, as there are many Buddhas or enlightened ones in Buddhism - including the Buddhist practitioner.

It is a style of painting that describe Christ in a particular way and there is a Greek icon of Christ as the "Enlightener" or Giver of Light (Fotodotis).

For Buddhists, the lotus position is the highest bodily position of making connection with the spirit - just as standing and kneeling are to the West.

And we Christians have also taken over and Christianized many, many pagan traditions, including Christmas and the like.

We still call the days of the week according to their pagan gods' names, Sunday, Moon-day, Tuesday, Wodin's Day or Wednesday, Thur's Day, Frei-day, Saturn's Day.

A Tibetan Buddhist I met in a store told me that a Russian Orthodox theologian who had been to Tibet and studied their religion there wrote an article on the closeness of their practices with those of Orthodoxy. I asked him who it was and he said he would get back to me with a reference.

Inculturation? Yes and it is going on all the time.

Syncretism? A resounding "NO!"

Alex

I know what Buddha means. Of course, Christ was THE Enlightened One. I have a problem with representing Him as a founder of a pagan religion. That is what is blasphemous. Since Christ also preached equality of men and social justice, let's portray Him as a Communist. Since Christ preached judgement, let us also portray Him as a fire-breathing monster. I think you get the point...

Atheists, Agnostics, non-Christians may do good, but it won't get them to Heaven. We get to Heaven by Faith, Grace and mercy. We do a disservice to people when we pretend that all paths lead to the same place.

>>>In the end, Christ saves everyone, whether they know it or not.<<< Really? I thought we had to believe in Jesus Christ; the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life in order to be saved. I wasn't aware of another way. This, of course, excludes those who through no fault of their own, don't know the Gospel.

Portraying Christ as an Indian is fine. As stated above, I have a problem with portraying Him as a Buddha. Buddhism is a religion, not culture.

>>>Don't knock what you may not fully understand.[/<<<

Because you disagree with me doesn't mean I don't understand what I'm saying.

Columcille

Dear Columcille,

Let's all just take a deep breath, shall we?

Ommmm . . .

Just wanted to comment, if I'm not bothering you, on that point of portraying Christ as the founder of a pagan religion.

And those Christians who do portray Christ in the lotus position, and this is not something that Christians in Asia MUST do, of course, are portraying him in a way that is relevant to them and to their Asian culture - ONLY.

Gautama Buddha did not invent the lotus position - it predates him, to be sure.

As for Buddhism being pagan - that goes only for the Mahayana or "High Church" Buddhism.

The "Hinayana" forms are quite iconoclastic and focus exclusively on Buddhist meditation and contemplation.

Zen or "Ch'an" means "meditation" as you know and so "Zen Christianity" is simply a form of Christian spirituality that is very philosophical and meditative, set within the culture of Asia.

To meditate on the Scriptures in this way is absolutely great - I've done it with others under a Christian Zen practitioner.

Of course, after a couple of hours in the lotus position, one's legs are never quite the same . . .

But we meditated on the words of Christ in the Gospel. Things were revealed to me in the Gospel that I have obviously overlooked before in my haste and lack of focus - as Cantor Joe Thur has pointed out to me on other occasions too .

And, Dove of the Church/Columcille, did you know that Gautama Buddha is listed among the saints of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches?

No?

O.K., just sit back for a moment and give me some room here . . .

The story of the conversion of the Buddha, when he left his wife on their wedding night and joined a monk to go into the desert, got to Greece via the trading routes.

The monks of Mt Athos translated it into Greek, translating the name for the Buddha or "Bodhisaf" as "Joasaph."

They immediately thought this to be a story about an Asian Christian saint.

The Orthodox Church placed the heroes of that story into the calendar, St Joasaph, Prince of India, the Monk who converted him and St Abenner, the father of St Joasaph.

The RC Church honours St Joasaph on November 27th (we have time to prepare for an online celebration! ).

I've seen an icon of St Joasaph, with his dark Indian features, in a church in Greece.

I also have an icon of him.

There can be no doubt that this St Joasaph is really the Bodhisaf, the "Buddha to be", Gautama Buddha, Prince of India.

Believe it or not . . .

Alex