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But do the TIBETANS consider themselves to be "Tibetan-Chinese", or simply "Tibetan"? I think that what the PRC has done in Tibet is hard to defend on any ground other than a kind of communist "manifest destiny". Sure, it's multicurltural NOW, because Beijing did its best to populate Western "China" with Han Chinese over the last 35 years ... but that still doesn't justify the situation in Tibet. It sort of reminds me of the old German attitudes towards the Dutch and the Scandinavians -- "hey, they're just western/northern Germans" -- funny, but the Dutch and Scandinavians don't see it this way.

Dear Brendan,

I always wonder what it would take to get another wonderful post-response from you here . . .

That is the point, as you say, to be sure.

And no one is out to villify the Chinese people!

Certainly not the Dalai Lama either - I think Westerners are amazed at his composure in speaking of China when we expect him to run them down etc.

I love Tibetan culture and admire their values and sense of piety. That they have a strong orientation to monastic life isn't something I, for one, am going to hold against them .

And I don't like them being picked on by another stronger power.

That basically states my relationship to Tibet - nothing really "intellectual" you know . . .

And their food is excellent too!

Have a great day, Navigator!

Alex

I am perfectly open to the fact that I am not an expert on Tibet. "Kundun" LOL yes this would refer to me, though I don't think movies make me an expert, at least not yet.

The Chicago Tribune had an interesting article on Tibet yesterday. The article would seem to contradict your assertment Edward though of Tibetan 'serf' power. According to the article the general Tibetan population does have access to a greater assortment of choices, I'm referencing, to more choices of consumerism - or more choices for the consumer. As evident that Pabst Blue Ribbon beer, that use to be produced in Milwaukee WI., but no longer is. Now is produced in China by rights of the US and whoever own's the rights on Pabst, and sold in Tibet - in their favorite style shot glasses at the bar. But with all the options in the market that the new Tibetan now faces, it is his Chinese neighbor from China who has moved into Tibet and owns most of the buisness and controls most of the capital. The Tibetan school child has been obliged - in the long tradition of colonised peoples - to learn the the language of their colonizer in school.

The new generation of Tibetans say they have never seen the Dali Lama and don't hold an attachment to him as their parents or grandparents do. They really don't care who controls Tibet whether it's Tibetans or Chinese. They just want their standard of living to go up. They acknowledge that their primary cultural allegaince is no longer to Buddhism and family per se. But now to pop culture/music and to nationalism -- in other words their not to much different then Americans in motivations. As I quote former US Marine Scott Ritter regarding his opposition to war with Iraq: 'My religion is America.'

I don't know Edward, I'm sure your right there is more I should know and other westerners should know regarding Tibet, before we rant on it. But I got the feeling the Chinese government isn't totally angels in their treatment of the Tibetans.

By-the-way. My confirmation name is Chinese: Chi - Zhusi. Chinese martyr.

The one good thing the Chinese government did regarding Buddhism, was to leave the Shaolin Temple still boxing.

Justin

You speak some of the most wisest words here. I already have something written in response, I am too tired now but I hope to post it tomorrow. God Bless….

Maximus,

We have those traditions in Christianity. Are you not appreciating your own tradition?

Edward,

I had the opportunity to write a review article for an Egyptology journal comparing ancient Egyptian, Nubian and Chinese hydraulic and irrigation systems. Over the course of doing the research for the paper I came to fall in love with China and things Chinese; very fascinating culture.

One quick and small area of disagreement. I don't know if you were implying that all of China's serfdom was more brutal than medieval Europe or just for Tibet, but let me just say that that is too general a characterization. I think that the ancient Chinese Hsien civil service afforded far greater opportunities than a European serf could have ever dreamed of. It was not based on birthright and humble Chinese who joined it were promoted on the basis of test scores, seniority, and merit. There was not another system like it in the ancient world.

OK now to the subject.

I agree with you on how hypocritical it is for people to be supporting separatism in another country knowing good and well that if the question arose right here in America they would probably go haywire. They drive around with their “Free Tibet” bumper stickers (I am from California Bay Area so you can imagine I see plenty of those). Now if an African American or Latino started talking about the need to separate from the oppressor they will start crying about how everyone is an American, etc.

Amnesty International does not only write about China. It also has plenty of things to say and has written reports about the American Police Departments, particularly New York and Philadelphia. The Malibu Beach “Free Tibet” crowd need to clean up their own house before running to the Himalayan Mountains to clean up someone else's house.

The Tibetan pro-independence movement, peaceful or not, is an attempt to split a multi-ethnic China along racial lines, and the Chinese Government will have none of that nonsense. There are five major ethnic groups in China: Han-Chinese, Manchurian-Chinese, Mongolian-Chinese, Mahometan-Chinese (Hui) and Tibetan-Chinese. Most people are only familiar with Han-Chinese, but China is and has always been more than that. Shall we see a breakdown of China along the lines of Yugoslavia? I assure you, that would be much bloodier.

Points well taken; but the problem is that unity can not be held against peoples will and it can not be maintained by force.

In my study of liberation movements around the world I have come to one simple conclusion about how to defeat a separatist movement and maintain unity. As contradictory as it sounds, the best way to defeat the nationalist aspirations of oppressed people is to support them. The greatest strength that separatist in all nations have is the ability to demonstrate to their constituents that the perceived oppressor is not capable of being reformed and that the only solution is to separate from them.

You see if the people that the Tibetans perceive to be their oppressors (let us say the Han) are actually supporting their demands for self determination then that weakens separatist propaganda. It deprives them of their platform, it makes them irrelevant. However if the only thing that the people who are perceived to be the oppressor are doing is saying “we are a multi-ethnic country, cease your struggle,” “we are all oppressed not just you,” “we will not tolerate separatism,” “you guys are backed by the CIA” and things of that sort, all it does is strengthen the case of the separatists. They point out how the suffering of the Tibetan people is not being addressed by the other group; they make the case that they are stubborn and will never change so we have to be on our own.

The principle of self-determination is not to encourage separation but is actually meant to defeat it.

This is an excerpt from the current Ethiopian Constitution. Article 39: The Right of Nations, Nationalities and Peoples: 1. Every nation, nationality or people in Ethiopia shall have the unrestricted right to self-determination up to secession.

Now it is hoped that no ethnic group in Ethiopia ever chooses to exercise this right. But the only way you get them not to is by telling them that they can, showing them love and respect so that they don't want to. A unity that is based on mutual respect for cultures, languages and traditions is the strongest unity of all. I hope this makes sense.

God Bless

A. Semaet

It's similar to the Basque problem in Spain, I'm sure that the basques wanted to be fully independent in the early 1900's, but now it's clear that most of them do not want to loose the confortable status they have now as a part of Spain.
I would also be happy if New Mexico, California, Texas decide to come back as a part of Mexico , but I am sure that the people who live there now would not be so happy and we all know that they got the progress and freedom that had been denied before.

I have always been very scheptical about the Tibetan version of the facts, which is Western and not really Tibetan. Or at least that was the way I learn things.
I was taught that the Tibetans were under an oppressive feudal regime totally controled by a "divine c7ast" of monks and war lords, and that the people of Tibet fought against that regime, and many of them saw the Chinese as their saviors.

Im not sure if you know about the Republic of kalmikia in Russia, which is Budhist (Altay) but the Russian Church had a very important mission there, and not there's a group of native clergy of Kalmik origin. It would be interesting to know how both communities live together.

Dear Remie,

Well, so much of Latin America was formerly united as part of the Spanish Empire and under the Spanish Crown.

The Spanish King's motto is "Plus Ultra" or "More Beyond."

I think it is a shame that Spain did not try to evolve its empire into a commonwealth focused on the Spanish Crown, much like the British situation.

And you forgot to mention Florida whose flag is largely based not on the Confederate flag, but on the red jagged saltire of St Andrew, the patron of the Spanish Army.

FYI, I'm a monarchist . . .

As for California, I think the U.S. has had its sights set on Baja California for some time now - one Presidential candidate even suggested Mexico "hand it over" to the U.S. as payment for debts etc.

And I think the way to go for Mexico is to bring back a crowned Sovereign. Perhaps not like Emperor Maximilian. But a king nevertheless. This business of the "United States of Mexico" is quaint but I don't think the U.S. cares, frankly.

Enough of my monarchist rants . . .

Alex

Dear Remie,

What I think is truly Western about seeing the Tibetan situation is to judge Tibetan society as "oppressive" and therefore implying that the Chinese came in as saviours of Tibet.

And there is nothing further from the truth.

China is a great people and culture. It too will open its doors and bring in improvements for its people.

But Tibet should decide what is best for itself.

Ultimately, I believe that Russia will, once again, become Tsarist and very Orthodox.

That may not sit well with Western democrats. But I think the two-headed eagle and the theocratic political structure it implies is what is most culturally suited to the Russian temperament.

The same for Tibet.

This argument of feudalism etc. is also applied to the role of the Greek Catholic Church in Western Ukraine by Marxists too.

Alex

Dear Aklie,

Your point on the best way to stifle rebellious movements is to support them is well taken.

This is truly why Tsar St. Nicholas Romanov and his family were martyred by the Bolsheviks - not because they were "bad" as soviet propaganda would have it (the soviets are angels?), but precisely because the Tsar had wide popular support among movements that wanted land reform while keeping a reformed Tsarist state in place.

The Tsarist Russians, by what of the Moscow Academy, in 1905, actually recognized the Ukrainian language and separate nationhood and said that anyone who says otherwise is being "vicious." This is noted in Ohienko's work on the Ukrainian language.

(Perhaps our friend Rostislav could do some research on this time period and fill in some blanks in his knowledge about this?)

As Robert K. Massie also noted in his book on the Tsar and Tsaritsa, the Tsar was quite open to many kinds of reforms (although he opposed communism) and this was seen as dangerous by the Reds for their cause.

Alex

Aklie,

I mean to speak more about the concept of society then written traditions.

***

As for Catholicism. What most impressed me, and help pull me to the Church, was/were ironicly, the Catholic clergy and seminarians I encountered. I came to know. I observed. I say ironicly because it is Catholic laity now-a-days who would confess their moral superority over Catholic clergy. Disregarding their sacrifice and commitment.

As for the Catholic laity, pre-reconversion Church - refering to myself, I could never tell the difference between a Catholic and an unchurched person who cared nothing for Christianity. In fact I would have to say that most unChurched people by-in-large (gangsterism and thug culture aside. Which is a whole new animal - and widely unChurched) are far more charitable towards others then the larger part of Catholics. Forgiving? An effy one... depends on the person I'd say, not Churched or unChurched.

As for me and Catholicism---? Forgetaboutit...

There's much I admire and respect about Catholicism. And so much so in the clergy and seminarians I know. But I have lost my faith in Christianity. Which in many ways is a relief to me. I always harbored guilt, which I still do but not as much anymore . Pluse I always attempted to know more and become a better Christian - though the attempt was in many ways often a failure. I would have given anything for sainthood. Well that's a lie. I was like St Augustines prayer in many ways: Lord make me a saint, just not right yet. Being a Christian as I saw it meant I would have to condition my heart to care more for others I had little to no connections with - now I'm free of that. Being a Christian meant I had to put Christian ethics above finacial reward - now I'm free of that. Being a Christian often meant a less attractive road in every way. The only thing attractive was that if you tryed hard, you were trying hard to be faithful to Christ as your God and mentor. -- which is quite an admirable thing as far as I'm concerned.

But Aklie, no matter how unChristian I am, I will be as Christian as a great many other Catholics attending Mass on sunday and supporting abortion because it is the comfortable road to take.

Don't get me wrong. My faith was lost not in others but in the belief of Christian theology it's self.

I still probably no more, and understand more, about the Christian faith then most Catholics. Not here of course always (this forum). But out in the larger world - yes.

Justin

Yes. My grandfather retired from the Pabst brewery. That was in Milwaukee, WI. USA. Now the Chinese brew Pabst for distribution in Tibet. A Chino-Americano relationship built on the divinty of sales, marketing, and distribution. Fabulously the Chinese are now offering the Tibetans they conquered, beer-in-a-glass. Just like the Europeans in the early days of the "New World" offered the Native Americans they conquered alcohol-in-a-bottle. I'd say in both case the trade for independence was fair.

***

On another note I'm confused. Under the united ethinc 'Chinese' banner. Shouldn't then that mean all semetic people should be united under the Arabs? What about all nortthern Europeans under the Germans? All Bantu peoples under the Kasanjes?

I would also question the Califorina analogy leaving the States. I would say the proper analogy would be to ask the question: what if Mexico decided to invade Califorina to bring it back under the banner of the Eagle and Serpent? Should California just submit?

Justin

"This is truly why Tsar St. Nicholas Romanov and his family were martyred by the Bolsheviks precisely because the Tsar had wide popular support among movements that wanted land reform while keeping a reformed Tsarist state in place."

I don't think the Tsar was a very charitable monarch and his actitude was very repressive against the peasants and those who wanted the land reforms. I remember that movie about how the army shot all those protesters who carried the icons and the pictures of the Tsar in St Petersburg. Maybe it's just that I learnt the other version of the facts which was taught in school (you know... that the Tsar and his familly were evil people who had what they deserved and that Lenin was like an "angel").

About Baja, I would propose a deal: they give us New Mexico and we give them Baja California

Dear Remie,

I wouldn't believe what I see in the movies, compadre!

I would read Robert Massie's book for starters, "Nicholas and Alexandra" and then the "Romanovs - The Final Chapter."

Bloody Sunday was organized by Fr. Alexander Happon and the Tsar was not present at the palace when things got WAY out of hand.

Fr. Happon believed in reforms and was loyal to the Tsar - which is why the Reds couldn't believe their luck when the Tsarist guards opened fire on the peaceful demonstration.

Suffice it to say that the West has swallowed much soviet propaganda against the Tsar.

Happily, Russia has also been the first to recant and reject that same propaganda in honouring the Tsar, canonizing him and atoning for the sins of their forefathers.

I think we can go a ways with the Russians in this process . . .

Alex

Now you are starting to sound like one of these posters complaining about how socialism sounds good on paper.

It is very unfortunate that your faith in Christianity has been tainted.

It is not as bad as you think and it is not only on paper. Have you checked out the stuff in Kiev, the things that the Indians have been up to, or one of our Monasteries in Ethiopia?

I have found it very saddening that here in America a Christian and a Buddhist can say the exact same thing but people, out of their fascination with exoticism, will take the Buddhist more seriously.

I almost told you a few months ago (because I detected your sentiment back then based on something that you said) You might want to consider some time away from this country. Why not go to Spain or somewhere and spend some time in a Monastery in the countryside? Why do you have to give up on the priceless heritage of the Apostolic Christian faith? Trust me brother, there is nothing better. These other religions may seem attractive, just as a life in sin and not Church seems attractive, but for anyone who humbles themselves to receive the spiritual gifts of our faith will not regret it. Forget the Gurus and the New Agers, they know not what they say or do. And forget the laity in the Church supporting abortion. That is the problem with America and industrial society in general. In the end, it is between you and God not you, them and God.

Come back home immediately brother.

A. Semaet