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Justin,

Like I said, I do not understand much of the Catholic reasoning and the motivations behind the "community' concepts. What you describe somewhat disturbs me but until I have a complete synopsis on the functioning of such institutions I am considering what you said as one side of the story.

I believe I could live a celibate life. But this I know did not come from some God with a personality. It came from me. From the divinity within me that has zero personality. My prayers were not so much the Christian Gods concern as I thought, what they were was a process of drawing inwards in my self.

You are expressing a contradictory reality here, two arguments in one. One I agree with the other I don't. As Brendan stated, “Buddhism tends to be very egocentric” and I can see that starting to rub off on you as when you say that Christ has no involvement in your life. But on the fact that you overcame your addiction by reaching within is very Christian. You have just discovered the Kingdom Within that Christ spoke about. Now I can see where your previous thread on the theology concerning Satan stands in relation to this question. You wanted to discuss if Satan is an external entity or an internal possibility. Well, he is both. Evil is embodied in a fallen Angel for sure but it is also a choice that we have, and the Church has always taught this.

When you overcame your addiction, it was like a big click wasn't it? You finally saw that it has to come from you and nowhere else. You discovered the Kingdom Within and this was no doubt a blessing of the Holy Spirit. So why, when you finally get the point of Christianity, are you opting to leave?

I should learn to live out my Christianity more so than discuss it.

You are so right. Christianity is a lived experience; it is a way of life. The philosophers and theologians love to ponder on irrelevancies and forget the essentials. Christianity is like math, while the structure and rules are the same for everyone, everyone must still "get it' on their own.

I once took an environmental science course where the teacher started off the class by reading long from the Book of Genesis; somewhere around chapter 1 verse 26 where it is talking about let man have dominion over fish, foul, etc. The teacher advanced the theory that this belief (he called it something dominion I forgot the actual term he used) is the reason for the collapse of the environment the world over. Many of these "visionary activists' that I mentioned yesterday say the same thing. On how the Christian faith leads to ecological imbalance and why we should turn elsewhere (like Shamanism) for guidance.

I don't know what these people are talking about; our own Christian traditions are rich and rewarding.

The EOTC understands “Nature” in a holistic manner. “Nature” means all of Gods creations: people, animals, plants/trees, and even non-organic things like the air. Because of EOTC's understanding of the scripture, it was put in Church Law that trees around and within churches and monasteries can not be cut down. It has been commented that in Northern Ethiopia, in areas that are completely desolate and near life-less, the church stands out like an oasis. A mini forest in itself. Many species of indigenous flora that are otherwise extinct in other areas are preserved in the compounds of the Church. The Church bases its ecological philosophy on passages from the Old Testament like: “[in reference to taking over a city] you shall not destroy it's [the cities] trees by wielding an axe against them; for you may eat of them, but you shall not cut them down. ARE TREES IN THE FIELD MEN THAT THEY SHOULD BE BESIEGED BY YOU? (Deuteronomy, 20: 19). Many foreign environmentalist have [jokingly] suggested that the Ministry of Natural resources be handed over to the EOTC since they are the only ones who know how to protect and preserve the environment. We don't need shamans and Greek goddesses to tell us anything, notwithstanding the assertions of the professor.

I also don't need Tai Chi for my health. I remember when I was in the Debre Libanos Monastery and it was very early in the morning (the time between Hours and Liturgy) and I was just sitting there. One of the Monks approached me and asked me why was I just sitting there and not doing the Prostrations. I thought he was judging me so I naturally got a little defensive and I said because I am not in penance (it was early and I guess I was still half sleep to say such a stupid thing). He reminded me that the rapid Prostrations are not just for penance and praise but also for health; it's a Christian exercise.

So brother Justin, all I am saying to you that since you are talking about drawing from within, first draw from within your own Christian heritage and find the treasures that lie within. We have our own ecological balance systems, our own "divinity within' understandings, our own rhythmic movements for better health. I am not saying not to look to other tradition for inspiration (if the shoe fits wear it). I quite agree with the points that others have been making on this thread. But to reiterate Brendan and Remie and Abdur, do it as a compliment to the faith not as a substitute. Do not look to Buddhism at the expense of being a Christian.

A. Semaet

Well Alex,

Thank you for your clarification. You almost had me convinced of some of your more persuasive monarchist arguments (I was starting to get scared because I thought that my socialist principles were firmly planted). But when you mentioned commonwealth and Francophone, I just found it too resembling of colonialism to stomach. So now I am back to my anti-monarchist square 1.

I might as well admit it - I also think an Ethiopian constitutional monarchy would be best for, well, you know . . .

More on that later, but I don't think that the Ethiopian Royal family has learned one lesson from the past. People might like Haile Sellasie, that does not mean that they support monarchy. Price Armias is a nobody to most.

are there two Iskanders in Ethiopian tradition? Someone mentioned this and I am confused

More on that another time, but there can be even more than two, tell me what two Iskenders you think you are talking about?

Reading about the cannibal practices has not dampened my love for Mexican food one iota

Well it shouldn't. Here in California Mexican food is not a delicacy but a staple

Somehow I knew you were going to say that. The Chicanos are neither confused or ashamed about their identity. Their experiences are shaped not only by their Mexican background but, like any Diaspora, their lived experience in the U.S. The "Zoot suit' rebellion, the Brown Berets, the farm workers struggle, etc. Not many people adhere to the Aztlan thing. The identity with Aztecs is admirable because it was their way of identifying with the Indian part of their heritage. From my travels in Latin America I have often encountered the opposite feeling from some mestizos. If you remind some of them about their Indian background they get all upset, one guy told me that the Indios are a bunch of ugly savage bush people and cannibals that the Spaniards had to civilize. The Chicanos have rejected that ideology and reasserted that they are both Spanish and Indian. That La Raza does not start 500 years ago with the arrival of Spaniards but extends to the beginning of Mexican civilization. What is wrong or confusing about that?

What I meant by Latino Catholic identity simply means that the Catholic tradition has become an organic part of the Latino culture. It is the basis of many of their cultural moorings and expressions. The Church forms a central place in their community. I meant nothing more than that. As per their particular traditions I am in no position to comment (I did see a discussion a few month ago on an African American web site where everyone was furious that the latest Canonized Mexican Saint, who was an Indian, was portrayed as a Spaniard in the official Icon).

God Bless.

Dear Aklie,

Well, under the current government in Ethiopia, there will be a number of lessons the people will, unfortunately, learn.

However, I think this board isn't the most appropriate place to discuss monarchy and socialism .

Suffice it to say, that if you are still a socialist after several years of working etc., I'll give you full credit.

All my die-hard socialist university colleagues are corporate capitalists today . . .

God bless and keep teaching us about the Ethiopian tradition!

FYI, what are the Seven Covenants all about?

Alex

Well, under the current government in Ethiopia, there will be a number of lessons the people will, unfortunately, learn.

Yes, of course you are correct. Do not for one minute think that I support the present government. Nor do I support the former. I don't support many of these fanatical people in the so-called opposition either. I am putting my confidence in the addis tewlid (new generation) of young people to overcome everyone's backwardness. It is great to be independent because you are free to say what you want. I do support the present Patriarch out of religious considerations. The actual Church that I go to every Sunday though does not recognize him. They have not one theological point of difference so it does not matter to me (those politicians again). I am for a united Patriarchate and we have youth organizations devoted to that. The only stubborn people are the old folks, especially opposition politicians.

However, I think this board isn't the most appropriate place to discuss monarchy and socialism

No worries; I don't debate socialism anymore as I found the debate to become abstract and unending. I just fight for it, I support the workers and the farmers when they are on strike and in action. Either you support the workers or you support the bosses, simple enough. No need to debate about this worked here, that failed there, human nature is this, American workers are ignorant or any other such topic.

As for Monarchism, like I said I am not closed minded (so long as we can have democracy and social justice). Some of what you say is persuasive but you never say too much. I guess I will have to wait until after elections to get an elaboration, right?

All my die-hard socialist university colleagues are corporate capitalists today

weaklings… Fredrick Engels was a capitalist

what are the Seven Covenants all about?

Seven what? We have seven Sacraments like everyone else, or what are you talking about?

P.S. how is Ukraine to be ruled under monarchy? Are they to fall under the Czar?

I believe there is a small genuine Ukrainian social democratic party that have observer status at the Socialist International and are real social democrats and not fronts for the old regime.

Thanks Brian, but I was trying to find out if our Patriotic Ukrainian-Canadian friend would submit to rule under a new Czar or if there was some independent Ukrainian monarchal tradition that exists.

Dear Aklie,

Yes, there is an independent Ukrainian monarchial movement, although its following is small.

Although "czar" means "king," they wouldn't use that word as it has come to be identified with the Russian orbit exclusively.

Republican governments in the 20th century in Ukraine have been abject failures and, in the end, they've tended to be "socialist" and, for some reason, this leads them to be pro-Russian.

There is a real need for social safety nets over there, as well as for the freedom to create a mixed economy, a stronger agricultural base for the people etc.

A constitutional monarchy with a king or hetman or some such based on the historic symbolism of the past would unite tradition to democracy and, there are those who believe, help stabilize it.

The fact that people over there generally have no idea what a constitutional monarchy is or how a true parliamentary system works doesn't mean that these would not benefit them.

They do know the system they have and the political leaders aren't working - but they can't get rid of them.

As you say, it will take time.

I once gave a tour for a group of Russian MPs and told them about how the Crown works in Parliament here.

They turned to each other and said, "That is what we lack."

"We lack at least one institution that is non-partisan in our country (the crown)."

In Russia, those who convert to Orthodoxy tend also to develop monarchist tendencies.

I am fascinated by the relationship between Orthodoxy and monarchy today, as in the past.

But let's get back to religion, shall we?

The seven covenants include that of Adam and Eve, Melchisedek, Noah etc. concluding with the New Covenant of Christ.

Alex

Yes I suppose something are hard to loose. Even if I was to totaly convert to Buddhism I would look very much like a "Latinized" Buddhist.

Justin

Aklie,

I appreciate your attempt at charity - in one way by addressing me as brother - even though I could possibly be getting on your nerves.

And you should consider what I posted as a one sided story. As there has to be another side to the story - truer or falser. While I admit that my post may have been load towards my own personal sentiment, that in it's self showing a bias. I attempted not to paint a bad picture or be dishonorable about "community". I have run into enough people in my life to know that I have a rare ability to disagree with someone and still be able to give them respect. Not to allow bad sentiment to discolor the good that is in them. This is not so with everyone. While I know for a fact that there are a number of brothers that, though they may disagree with me on points of view of community, would still say there is much truth and good in me. However this may not be the case with all I consider fellow brothers. Sitting at the right hand of Christ can sometimes blind people when they are certain of the rightousness of their goal. All though I am equaly subject to being blinded when attempting to acheive my own goal, as any other human. Fortunately for me I don't sit at the right hand of God, so the light isn't so bright, at least so often.

And as for my addiction? I have many. And even the erotic one I would not state as totally recovered - just on the verge of enlightenment Still of few miles to go though.

Justin

Dear Alex,

Tibetan serfdom was not the same thing as European serfdom. That's the key to understanding why the old Tibetan regime had to go. Tibetan serfs were slaves, cattle to be bought and sold, killed or used as their owners pleased.

I'd like to see a monarchy restored... My own ancestors were in power during the last Han-Chinese dynasty, the Ming, so I have my own minor claim to the Dragon Throne... Emperor AND Patriarch of China... talk about a major Ethnarch :p

I'd encourage you to hear the Chinese side of the story too. The Chinese communists were anything but racist.

The Dalai Lama is a GOD-King, not just a King. And even then, they were a province of China!

Read www.dalailama.com [dalailama.com] - he advocates racial segregation a la Botha and the National Party during the days of apartheid in South Africa. I'm sorry, but the world doesn't pay enough attention to the great majority of source material on the Tibet-China issue, which happens to be in Tibetan or Chinese language.

The Dalai Lama hides in India to foment rebellion against Peking. How would India like it if China gave refuge to the Kashimiri seperatists?

The Dalai Lama sure is. Composure? What can he say to run Peking down? That we've improved the lot of his former slaves? That we've brought electricity, sanitation and education to his people? That we've raised the literacy rate from 5% to nearly 80%? Perhaps he's sore that his serfs have had their life expectancy raised from 35 in 1959 to 64 in 2002?

Peking's not picking on them. Peking saw one of her provinces wasn't doing things right and intervened, it's as simple as that. Dalai's just sore he can't rule as God anymore.

Perhaps for a fairer idea of the situation, one should ask how the Asians feel about it. It's their own backyard, after all. Ask Japan, Korea, Taiwan and the region - they'll all tell you how Tibet *IS* historically part of China.

You guys wouldn't go to Western Europe or America for a fair view of the Kosovo situation would you? You'd ask the neighbouring countries who know what's going on.

Dear Brian,

In case you didn't realise, China is a communist country only in name now. It's probably the world's most capitalist country these days. I'm a regular visitor to China, and I've seen the changes in the last 10 years and it's staggering. The Peking Government's power is not, as you might think, slipping away. It's changing - China's slowly becoming more liberal - only you guys in the West don't hear about it.

You know that recent report on China by the hawks in Washington? Complete rubbish, and all of Asia knows this. Social justice is improving in China - have you been there? Do you have relatives there? Really.

The difference between Russia and China is that China didn't spend huge amounts of money in reworking her image or making lots of noise about "glasnost" and "perestroika". She still has her tacky uniforms and the system looks the same, but I assure you she's adopted capitalism in a big way. Democracy's getting better too. The Peking government has been involved in the curious project of changing over to capitalism while keeping the marxist terminolgy, and justifying the changeover in marxist terms. Quite fascinating.

Dear Brendan,

It's important to remember the word "Chinese" is not and never has been limited to the Han culture. It's a bit like the word "British", which includes the English, the Welsh and the Scottish. Tibetans before all this splittist nonsense started were quite happily being an autonomous region of China.

And the situation is...? Tibet is a province of China, just as Sinkiang and Manchuria. Tibet happens to be the place of origin of Tibetan-Chinese, but that doesn't make it any less a province of China.

Imagine your argument used in the UK:

"Sure, it's multicultural NOW, because London did its best to populate Western "Britain" with Englishmen over the last 900 years... but that still doesn't jutify the situation in Wales." - see how ludicrous it sounds?

Not quite the same thing. Be very careful about making analogies. The Dutch and the Scandinavians were never under German rule. Tibet has been part of the Chinese Empire for a very very long time.

Dear Justin,

I've never said Peking was an angel, far from it, but I'm glad there's one person here who sees that there is a lot more to Tibet than what most people know.

Really? Which one was he? I'm still trying to find a complete listing of the Chinese Martyrs, with their names in Chinese.

Heh, they needed the skills!

Dear Aklie,

Many thanks for your kind words. I'm a lover of Ethiopian things myself, I've got a priest's silver blessing cross (which looks decided celtic with the knotwork) which I never touch with my bare hands... I wear two Ethiopian crosses from Axum and I've got a 12th Century Ethiopian icon on my altar!

Certainly I mean that Tibet's serfdom was far more barbaric and cruel than Mediaeval Europe's version, and far worse than Mediaeval China's version too! I'm quite familiar with the Han system - that's how my own ancestors rose to the Dragon Throne =)

Ok ok I've ranted enough :p

In Domino,

Edward

Edward,

Glad you asked.

Chi Zhuzi (I think I spelled his name wrong before with si at the end).

+ A martyr during the Boxer Rebellion in China.

++ Eigthteen years of age.

+++ Presumed to have been a catechuman (RC) by virtue of his Chinese name.

++++ With one arm chopped off and prepared to be flayed alive he exclaimed: "Every piece of my flesh, and every drop of my blood, shall repeat to you that I am a Christian!"

Actually I was looking for a confirmation name of a Chinese. About a year or so back on the catholic-pages when one of the members introduced me to this name and martyr. I wanted a Chinese confirmation name in recognition of the suffering Chinese Church. Needless to say I was taken away by this kid. Tougher then I'll ever be. I adopted his name, and to this day pray to him. Infact he is one of the few saints I have this knowinly sense listens to me. Remains close. I suppose this will sound weird - but I feel friends with him.

Justin

Edward you are too cool

I don't think that either of us can out do Alex on the Ethiopian crosses. He has two of the big processional ones. I don't know anyone else who owns those except my Church. And how did you manage to get a 12th century Icon? Any Ethiopian museum would envy you.

I have heard about the Celtic similarities before, but I don't know what the knots represent in the Irish tradition. If the cross you refer to has 12 knots then each one of the knots represents one of the 12 disciples.

But I am starting to wonder about your agenda here. Is your opposition to the Dalai Lama because of his racialist politics or is this really an inter-throne feud? Edward is the heir to the Dragon throne and wants to be Emperor of all of China and can't accommodate a rival monarch No problem, it seems you will make an excellent king your majesty. Just remember to grant me permits to do some archaeological excavations at the Longshon sites Hey now its only fair, you have a 12 century Icon.

Justin, that martyr guy sounds like a true champion! I wouldn't mind being his friend too

God Bless

habeas corpus?

www.atc.org.au/campaigns/panchen12.html [atc.org.au]

Abdur

Tibetan Nuns

www.amnestyusa.org/countries/china/kunsang_lhamo.html [amnestyusa.org]