www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Ecumenical Councils: Are there 21 or only 7?

No prob.

Great. (I was imagining that you disagreed but hadn�t gotten around to saying so.)

-Peter.

I believe that this is one of the documents in question.

http://212.77.1.199/en/doc/1439.htm

The Russian bishops are here dealing with a not unrealistic Russian fear that they will be outbred by non-Russians. The Muslim population of Moscow (of variable estimates but maybe up to 3 million) is something which brings them disquiet. So this is the context of their article and what they are alarmed about is *excessive* use of contraception by the Russian Orthodox.

The Orthodox Churches don't tend to put out statements such as the Vatican does -papal encyclicals, bulls, curial statements, etc. But in the year 2000 the Russian Orthodox Church, feeling the need to proclaim some basic Christian principles for the guidance of the Russian people after the country's depressing 70 years of repression by the atheistic powers, held a Millennial Synod in Moscow and published a major statement on the Church and modern society "The Basis of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church."

The Russian Orthodox Church allows contraception and speaks of it in the Millennial Statement from the Synod of Bishops.

BASES OF THE SOCIAL CONCEPT OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH

XII. 3. Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgements are applicable to the use of them as to abortion. But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least. In defining their attitude to the non-abortive contraceptives, Christian spouses should remember that human reproduction is one of the principal purposes of the divinely established marital union (see, X. 4). The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://www.incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/introduction

Father Ambrose, bless!
Thank you for unearthing this; many here had used the Russian statement as a condemnation of contraception, but I had always seen it as a purely prudential statement, not a rejection of artificial contraception in principle. You have proven me right.
At this point it is the Catholic Church's adherence to the Apostolic Tradition on contraception that is the most convincing argument for remaining Catholic.
Certainly Orthodoxy wins on the aesthetic level, which appeals mightily to me!

And welcome to the forum! You live in a remarkably beautiful country, as the Lord of the Rings films showed to the world!

-Daniel

I must say Roman_Army's post with the quotes from the Ecumenical Lateran Council, etc. are very good. The Ecumenical Council of Vatican I and II and all others are just as valid and ecumenical as the Council of Nicaea. Just because people leave the Church does not make it any less complete. The Orthodox went into schism and seperated from the Holy Roman Church. Just because they left DOES NOT make the Holy Church incomplete. The Orthodox clearly see that they are not the true Church of Christ seeing that they know that they cannot hold an ecumenical council nor have. For an ecumenical council to be valid it MUST be recognized by the Pope of Rome.

Michael

Michael,

As an Orthodox priest this is the most ludicrous statement I have ever seen. This has never been stated by any Orthodox Church ever. Certain events in the last century have been putting off the calling of a Great Council, none of which have any consideration as to whether the pontiff is calling it or not. I would strongly suggest that if this your opinion state so, if not put up the facts.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Dear Father Anthony you said:

" if not put up the facts."

I say:

"Put up your dukes".

Actually, an 'Ecumenical' Council cannot be held either by the RCC or the Orthodox Church...or so I think. It would have to be a united Church in order for one to be held. If a council was stated as ecumenical, without including all the Apostolic Churches, it would basically saying they are illigitimate and therefore a heresy.

Zenovia

Mike already mentioned this. The Catholic Church is the Church. The Church can not be divided, if there was only one Catholic left the Church would be just as much the Church as it would be if 3000000 people were in it. Just because some churches left the Church does not limit the Church from calling an ecumenical council.

It is a matter of rhetoric, who left who.

Again I state put up the facts, if not it is a ludicrous opinion.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony is wrong. Ludicrous does not begin to describe such opinions!

Brothers and Sisters:

I have been reading through the this thread and have found myself in a quandry. So, I'm going to resolve that quandry as follows:

1) Any post that does not seek to address the issue raised in this thread will be deleted.
2) Any poster who resorts to ad hominems or to polemics of any kind will be asked to rethink his or her post which will have been deleted.

Failure to follow these two rules will result in the thread being closed and may result in posters being banned from this forum.

At all times respect will be shown to Catholic (both Western and Eastern) and Orthodox alike. The attitudes shown in many of the posts here are quite unchristian.

Fr. Deacon Edward,
Moderator/Administrator

Ok then, I have a question for the Orthodox members of the forum, if the Orthodox Church wanted to hold an Ecumenical Council, would the lack of Catholics(Roman Catholics, Maronite, Byzantine etc anyone with Rome) attending make it less then an Ecumenical Council?

The prequisite of having the Church of Rome or any of the Churches in communion with it is not a question for the council that is being called for. As far as what I have read, it will be considered an Ecumencial Council by the Orthodox Churches in attendance.

Rome has not had any problem with holding councils they consider Ecumenical without the Orthodox or Oriental Churches. The matter on the binding of these councils would have to be worked out in any reconciliation between churches.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

I was just curious, because a lot of Eastern Catholics on here seem to think any Ecumencial Council held by the Catholic Church since the schism would be invalid due to lack of Orthodox attending.

I just wished to see if the Orthodox Church felt a similar way about the need for Catholic attendence.

The application of whether the latter 14 councils are binding upon the Byzantine Catholic Churches or not is a matter between them and Rome in whom they are in communion with. That would probably be more clearly defined in their code of canon law and respective acts of union.

I would suggest that someone would research that then to leave it a point of conjecture and speculation.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+