www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Ravenna Document

I know that the late Pope John Paul II, asked the Orthodox to get together and compile their thoughts on exactly what they *wanted* the Papacy to be. It didn't happen then, but that statement was groundbreaking!

In Christ,
Alice

Alice there are two really fine books by Orthodox writers that lay out the Orthodox position on the papacy quite well. One is an older volume edited by Father John Meyendorff called "The Primacy of Peter." http://www.amazon.com/Primacy-Peter...mp;s=books&qid=1193107053&sr=8-1

It is outstanding. Another is a more recent volume by Olivier Clement called "Thou Art Peter," that was written specifically as a response to Pope John Paul II's request. I just did a search for it but I believe that it is, unfortunately, out of print. Why so soon I don't know. I am disappointed. But Clement made great concessions even suggesting that the Pope could speak infallibility when speaking for all of the bishops with their consent (Pope as spokesman for the consensus). But not going as far as what is taught at Vatican I.

Unfortunatately, Vatican I has made reunion impossible. We Orthodox can never accept what is taught by Vatican I and Rome cannot repudiate it. So I think that at best we can be nice to each other, recognize the grace that exists in each other's Churches, and work together on common projects (evangelism of secular culture, etc.) But I don't think that it is realistic to hope for communion and it is not a matter of pride. It is a matter of the two Churches having ecclesiologies that are fundamentally irreconcilable.

Joe

Ah, here's the book by Clement.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...id=J17109544&pubid=K131307&byo=1

"You are Peter," not "Thou Art Peter."

Outstanding book and instrumental in my conversion to Orthodoxy.

Joe

Amin i Amin!

Thank you Joe, for putting it so well.

Alexandr

Father Steele-

Of course, the Orthodox generally see it differently. I don't think there's any one universally agreed position on this. However, the most persuasive book I've read that addresses the issue is by the abbot of one of the monasteries on Mount Athos, Archimandrite Vasileios, and called Hymn of Entry . It's published by Saint Vladimir's Seminary [svspress.com] , and Notre Dame library should have it. Normally, I'd hesitate to suggest it to the average reader, because it really requires at least a college-level understanding of theology and the like. But I don't think that's a problem in your case.

Basically, the book is a description of what [small o] orthodoxy is, in the various aspects of the Church - and uses abundant quotes from the Bible, the Fathers, and the Byzantine Liturgy of the Hours and Divine Liturgy.

From this conception of orthodoxy, he discusses how Rome is not orthodox. Very roughly paraphrasing, Archimandrite Vasileios states that in fact Rome's troubles come from Rome's primacy itself because it uses a man-made concept to create church unity, as opposed to unity through orthodoxy. A centralized authority centered in one person or office is not only foreign to but actually harnful to orthodoxy, and he believes that Rome's consistent efforts to defend its Primacy is the sign of its weakness.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with him. I think his description of orthodoxy is spot on - from the standpoint of Byzantine theology. I obviously don't think his concept of Roman theology are 100% accurate - or frankly I'd be Orthodox. But regardless of whether or not I agree with it I find it a completely different viewpoint on the whole issue of Papal Primacy which I believe is serious, from an entirely different perspective than conventional Catholic argument on this issue.

Markos

Joe, have you read Abbe Guettee's The Papacy--Its Historic Origin and Primitive Relations with the Eastern Churches?

Alexandr

Alexandr, I have not, but I feel I probably should. I think I will also get the book that was just recommended, Hymn of Entry

Joe

Here is an online version of the text. Is this the whole text?
http://www.pravoslavieto.com/books/papacy_abatt_guette.htm

Coming from Cardinal Kasper the Geist it is of no surprise. If this is the official document then it has to be approved by Rome, and in particular Pope Benedict and I cannot see him endorsing it or anyone in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (thank God).

I absolutely agree on all points, in particular the bold stuff.

And I don't think that is such a bad thing. Yes, we must experience the pain of not being able to commune at one another's church. However, as long as each of us has a church where we can commune, then all is good (almost).

Joe

On the other hand, if Cardinal Kasper becomes pope someday...

And he is a brilliant theologian by the way (as is Pope Benedict XVI)!

Joe

P.S. I'll be praying at the next conclave that Cardinal Kasper gets the nod, though Cardinal Schoenborn would be good too.

Well we have very different tastes in theology! How about you pray for Cardinal Schoenborn instead, I'm a huge fan of his. Besides any prayers for Cardinal Kasper becoming pope would probably be wasted, I admit we are sinners but God would not punish us like that!

Oh come on, he's not that bad is he!?! Cardinal Schoenborn is top notch though.

Joe

What about Giacomo Cardinal Biffi? Imagine what a tag team he would make with Patriarch +Alexei to stand down Western Secular Humanism and the Hagarene hordes!

Alexandr