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Mar 25th, 2025
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Re: Question related to
EasternChristian19
Yesterday at 03:58 PM
I "do" respect the latin custom by not making a spectacle of myself. I will never kneel for the Liturgy on the Lord's Day since it is prohibited by Canon 20 of the First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. But I make sure to stand with my family along the back wall out of sight from everyone so as not to become a distraction.
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Re: Status of Revised Divine Liturgy in 2024
Erik Jedvardsson
Yesterday at 12:25 AM
My brother, you must have heard about ritualistic development. If the ritual of the Mass, which is the most sacred thing we have, has become something so distinct over time in different languages and cultures, what can we say about the creed, which has been translated and proclaimed for the entire Catholic Church. We Latins have the Apostles' Creed, which our Doctors and Fathers say we received … EXPAND ▼ from the Apostles, and the Orientals do not recite it. The Armenian Creed is also somewhat distinct from the Greek Creed, and yet they are exactly the same creed. Personally, I believe that the creed is immutable in the substance of its content, not necessarily in the form it is recited, because then we get into questions of linguistics and also of culture. Adding or removing the phrase "Filioque" does not alter, adulterate or corrupt the Creed, so much so that Saint Hilary, Saint Ephrem, Saint Ambrose, Saint Augustine, Saint Jerome, Saint Leo the Great, Saint Epiphanius, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Saint Maximus (who dealt with both the Latin and Greek usages), Saint Faustus, Saint Gennadius, Saint Isidore, Saint Fulgentius, Saint Leander, Saint Theodore, Saint Paulinus, Saint Tarasius, Saint John of Damascus, Saint Gregory Palamas and many other Saints have always reaffirmed the orthodoxy of proclaiming that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and the legitimacy of both the Latin and Greek usages. After so many centuries, it is useless to discuss whether such usage is heterodox among the Latins. COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: Status of Revised Divine Liturgy in 2024
theophan
03/31/25 08:21 PM
Christ is in our midst!! Many creeds? The idea for the Nicene Creed was to put everyone on the same page. Different Creed? Different Faith. In that instance, all the fights over Arianism, Nestorianism, Monophysitism, and Monothelitism were wastes of time. Everyone can have a Christ of his own making. But wait, that's what happened in the West beginning in 1517. That also applies to Communion. The … EXPAND ▼ Creed is recited before sharing in the Holy Mysteries. Communion means we are of one heart and one mind--in agreement on all points of doctrine--which is why all the Churches of Apostolic origin do not practice open communion. Open communion means that everyone brings his own interpretation to what is happening at the Liturgy and no one is compelled to believe the same as his neighbor.
So one person believes that this is the Body and Blood of Christ. The next that Christ is mixed in with the bread. The third says that this is all a symbol and Christ is not truly present. It means that Christ is divided and His Prayer "that all may be one" doesn't happen. COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: Status of Revised Divine Liturgy in 2024
bwfackler
03/31/25 06:07 PM
"God from God" was in the Nicaean creed but not in the later Constantinopolitan creed. https://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed.There are many liturgical creeds used by different churches over the years for different circumstances. Why do they all have to be the same? If the Armenians want to express this in their liturgy, for example: We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the … EXPAND ▼ maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the begotten of God the Father, the Only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.
God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten and not made; of the very same nature of the Father; by Whom all things came into being, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, became human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the uncreate and the perfect; Who spoke through the Law, the prophets, and the Gospels; Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles, and lived in the saints.
We believe also in only One, Universal, Apostolic, and [Holy] Church; in one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins; and in the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the Kingdom of Heaven and in the everlasting life.
why is it wrong? COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: US Diplomacy: An embarrassment
theophan
03/31/25 03:29 PM
Christ is in our midst!!
I am closing this thread because it has become a distraction during Great Lent. We are becoming focused on partisan political issues that are draining Christian civility.
Bob
Moderator
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Re: Question about CIA revelations
Hutsul
03/30/25 03:44 PM
It's quite the jump from your opening post of "The CIA having assets in place....to manipulate elections" to your most recent " if true....elected certain popes." Come on, are we really to believe the CIA elects Popes when it feels like it? Have we gone down the hole that far? As stated above, there have always been outside influences in Vatican decision making. But, if we think that is not true … EXPAND ▼ in other denominations, we are deluding ourselves.
In my opinion, there are just too many bloggers and U-tubers fanning flames out there, with their gusts about moral decay and negative Western influence. Too many conspiracy theorists and endtime doomsayers. Too many political-minded fast talkers spewing apochalytic nonsense in order to influence genuinely good people.......even tearing down the Catholic Church because its leader refuses to fit into their fears of modernity and a changing world. Why? It promotes their socio- political agenda and, to paraphrase a current " gust" , it makes for good TV.
As to your post titled " prayers for conversion":
Yes, I too pray that you make a good decision about your choice of a "True Church", whatever your definition of that is. ( by the way, what is it?) And, I really mean that.
However, I must say that a choice like this should be made because of the positive aspects of one Church in particular- a Church that is undeniably attractive to you. Making this choice by obsessing over the negatives of another one doesn't quite seem the right approach. COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: Question about CIA revelations
Erik Jedvardsson
03/30/25 12:30 PM
How could a pontificate be invalidated based on a questionable election years after the death of the pontiffs involved? Even more so since this is something that has historical precedents and has never been a reason to invalidate a pontificate (we would have to see the Church declaring the pontificates of St. Gregory VII and St. John I, among other pontiffs, not only of Rome, declared invalid).
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Re: Question related to
EMagnus
03/30/25 01:52 AM
Although there is a difference insofar that Rome allows all manner of variation whereas the Byzantine churches do not. The present liturgical law contained in the GIRM is pretty clear about the behavior and posture of the faithful at each point during the NO liturgy. There is no carte blanche provision for doing whatever you want, despite what you might see … EXPAND ▼Although there is a difference insofar that Rome allows all manner of variation whereas the Byzantine churches do not. The present liturgical law contained in the GIRM is pretty clear about the behavior and posture of the faithful at each point during the NO liturgy. There is no carte blanche provision for doing whatever you want, despite what you might see in practice. But ultimately, this isn't a discussion about liturgical rules. This is about respecting local custom. As long as they do it out of sight of everyone else, so as not to become a distraction/spectacle, then sure. So why would you not extend this same respect to Romans at their liturgies? COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: Prayers for conversion
EMagnus
03/30/25 01:25 AM
As someone who has been through this struggle, I can certainly sympathize and attest that much prayers for discernment are needed as well as reading the Church Fathers. You certainly have my prayers for discernment. Well this is a prayer thread I didn't want it to turn into a debate thread. Well, you are saying on the one hand: As someone who has been through this struggle, I can certainly sympathize and attest that much prayers for discernment are needed as well as reading the Church Fathers. You certainly have my prayers for discernment. Well this is a prayer thread I didn't want it to turn into a debate thread. Well, you are saying on the one hand: I don't know which is the true church and can't seem to discern my way through it, finding my convictions keep leaning one way and then another. Which I understand. I was more like 60-40, maybe 70-30 one way or the other on some days. Other days, it seemed more like 50-50. However I am 99.999% intellectually convinced that Rome teaches heresies/errors that invalidate her claims of supremacy and infallibility. And acknowledging these historical errors for the facts they are makes it feel like remaining in communion with Rome to be to live with cognitive dissonance. But then you say this, which seems to indicate that you do know which one is the true Church. If you have decided for "fact" that Rome has taught heresy, I don't see any room for doubt which side you are on, or that you are open to discerning otherwise. So in the end, it seems like there is a broader discussion you're looking to have outside of prayers. And perhaps that belongs in a different location. COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: Prayers for conversion
Erik Jedvardsson
03/29/25 12:54 PM
This can be seen as heresy only from a certain point of view, and was not a problem in relations between the various points of Christendom during the first millennium of Christian history.
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Re: Prayers for conversion
EasternChristian19
03/27/25 05:24 PM
Well this is a prayer thread I didn't want it to turn into a debate thread. Without going into it much further the issues I have are with the heresy of papal supremacy (the Pope is not infallible by himself, no such thing as speaking dogmatically ex cathedra and the pope has never held universal jurisdiction over the entire church, something Rome admits herself in several documents that can be read on the vatican website).
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Re: US Diplomacy: An embarrassment
Roman
03/27/25 01:24 PM
U.S. President Donald Trump has privately made it clear to his aides that he will not resume providing military aid and intelligence to Ukraine even if Kyiv and Washington sign a minerals deal, NBC News reported on March 9, citing an unnamed Trump administration official and another American official. Trump resumed providing military aid and intelligence a few … EXPAND ▼U.S. President Donald Trump has privately made it clear to his aides that he will not resume providing military aid and intelligence to Ukraine even if Kyiv and Washington sign a minerals deal, NBC News reported on March 9, citing an unnamed Trump administration official and another American official. Trump resumed providing military aid and intelligence a few days later. He is now abrogating the free trade deal he agreed to a few years ago with Canada and Mexico. He is not respecting the US pledge made to Ukraine when it gave up its nuclear arms. yet He wants to make deals with Ukraine. One has to really be naive to believe he'll respect any deal he makes. COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: Prayers for conversion
Adamcsc
03/27/25 11:54 AM
Except it doesn't. Orthodox theologians teaching the possibility of universalism in one direction, and teaching that Catholic baptism are invalid (this is especially true in the russian orthodox church, and also quite recent) in the other. Sounds to me like Orthodoxy has its own problems. So, I think accusing Rome of "possibly" being heretical is really unfounded. Some bishops might be, but so … EXPAND ▼ what?
I'll pray for you, but I WON'T pray for you to be confirmed that I'm possibly a heretic.
I've noticed you didn't say what those heresies WERE.
Prayers for you, but not your confirmation bias. COLLAPSE ▲
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Re: US Diplomacy: An embarrassment
Adamcsc
03/27/25 11:49 AM
Know what makes me angry, is the IMMENSE amount of research I've done on this topic, and the fact that it's STILL a political thing in the United States. Did you know that Putin didn't use NATO as an excuse to invade Crimea? Did you know Putin agreed to Ukraine's borders in 2003? Did you know Putin says he didn't agree to the Minsk Agreements, even though you can literally find video of him doing … EXPAND ▼ just that? Did you know that, in 2008, Putin said "Crimea is not disputed territory"?
https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-crimea-ukraine/26942862.html
Why does everyone want to make Ukraine a political thing?
I'm a conservative, registered Republican, even.
But I've read (sometimes in my very limited Ukrainian), The Budapest Memorandum, The 1997 Friendship Treaty, and the 2003 Border Treaty. Not to mention, the results of the vote of the 1991 Ukrainian Declaration of Independence. And I have ALWAYS been suspicious that Crimea "voted" to be part of Ukraine...especially since Igor Girkin (sorry if I spelled that wrong), admitted that members of the Crimean Verkhovna Rada (parliament) were taken at gun point, and FORCED to approve the "annexation". And I remember, at the time, western media (at least in the United States) just unquestionably accepting Russia's version of the story.
And it's not Ukraine that would be responsible for World War III, it's Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea.
I see a HUGE hypocrisy in alleged China hawks in the US acting like Russia is somehow the good guy, when China provides Russia with equipment and weapons (and Iran and North Korea CERTAINLY provide Russia with weapons).
Oh, yet I'm told Russia is a Christian country (with atheist communists and Islamic theocratic allies)?
As for Ukraine persecuting the UOC-MP, it's still legal in Ukraine.
Strange how the "Catholic" Vance never discusses Eastern Catholics (or for that fact, any other Catholic, there are Latin Catholics in Russia, but they can't evangelize) being persecuted in Russia and occupied Ukraine.
That strikes me as hypocrisy. And, it reminds me of what Pope Francis said, "Let us not be hypocrites".
I apologize for such an emotional (but logical, they don't have to contradict)! Response, but, people turning this into a political thing is a huge annoyance of mine.
Anyway, I just wanted to get all these grievances out of the way, because it seems like there is a serious research problem (Like Rick Grennell not understanding the USSR wasn't just Russia...) COLLAPSE ▲
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St. Volodymyr Parish Established in the Chicago Eparchy
Adamcsc
03/27/25 11:27 AM
From the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, St. Volodymyr Parish Established in the Chicago Eparchy "On March 22, 2025, the parish of St. Volodymyr was officially established at St. Volodymyr’s Church in Santa Clara, California. Parishioners, together with church administrator Fr. Roman Bobesiuk, Fr. Denys Smoliarsky, and Deacon Oleh Zatvarsky, solemnly welcomed Bishop Venedykt Aleksiichuk of the … EXPAND ▼ Eparchy of St. Nicholas in Chicago. They greeted the bishop with bread, salt, and flowers as a sign of respect and spiritual unity." St. Volodymyr Parish Established In Chicago Eparchy [ugcc.ua]
It's nice to see good news! I don't live anywhere near California (nor do I plan to), but, it's nice to see out east, out west. I actually had the privilege of getting to know a priest (now a Hieromonk) who is based in a different part of California, when he was in Augusta, Georgia.
So, I am aware that the Eastern Church already has a presence there. But, California is a big state. I'd imagine some people still have to go quite the distance to find the nearest Eastern Catholic (or, in some cases, even Eastern Orthodox) temple.
I just felt like sharing good news, you know? COLLAPSE ▲
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