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Dear LatinTrad,

Actually I'm not upset at all, Big Guy! (How do you say "Big Guy" in Latin?)

The point you made is something that is part of an internal Byzantine Catholic debate that has been going on for some time.

A friend of mine who is a Greek Catholic priest says a Byzantine form of the rosary and adds the Western invocation at the end of each Byzantine Hail Mary - as if the Byzantine version in and of itself somehow lacks the "fullness" of the Latin version.

And that is part of our own issues with our feelings of second-classness etc.

As a matter of fact, there are a number of what our own Byzantine prayerbooks call "Eastern devotions" which are mere translations, letter for letter, of Western ones.

One of my parish priests once showed me how an invocation in the Eucharistic service called the "suplicatsia" was translated "slavishly" from the Polish e.g. "Molisia za NAMI" or "Pray for us."

In Polish, this phrase makes sense.

But in Slavonic and Ukrainian, this actually means "Pray behind us."

And he always, in his sermons against imported Latin devotions in our Church, said, "But why not, 'Pray in front of us?'"

And when it came to the cultus of the Mother of God in the Byzantine tradition, Fr. Lypsky would say that the Byzantine liturgical prayers are so beautiful and so spiritually meaningful that any "blind imitation of the Latin or another tradition in this respect must constitute an offense to the Mother of God Herself!"

He used some poetic license there, to be sure . . .

So when you brought up that issue, I was responding from within the context of that ongoing debate in our Church.

No offense taken at all - in fact, I thank you for raising that important matter.

I am a great devotee of St Louis De Montfort's Holy Slavery and regularly write on the Montfort Fathers site about Byzantine Marian devotion. If you are interested:

http://www.montfortmissionaries.com/thoughts.phtml

Laudetur Jesus Christus!

In Aeternam - Amen!

Alex

There seems to be similarities between the several popular �Hail, Mary� troparia that Diak refers to. I compared three below by categorizing similar words, phrases, and themes. The first line of words in each comparison is from the theotokion from New Years (Sept 1), and the second line of words is from the �classic� theotokion from, in my example, the Falling Asleep of John the Theologian, Apostle and Evangelist (Sept 26). The last line item in each category is the troparion from the Annunciation (Mar 25).

Salutation:
� Rejoice,
� Hail,
� Hail,

Grace-filled:
� O woman full of grace,
� � full of grace!
� and Gabriel announces this grace � O woman full of grace;

Mary�s virginity:
� ever-virgin
� Virgin Mary
� virgin�s [son]

Mary�s motherhood:
� Mother of God,
� Mother of God,
� to the Mother of God:

Mary� identity/role:
� harbor and protectoress of the human race.
� N/A
� N/A

Incarnation:
� The Savior of the universe received flesh from you,
� and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
� [The Son of God] becomes a virgin�s Son,

The Lord's presence:
� for you are the only one to be both mother and virgin,
� The Lord is with you.
� the Lord is with you!

Glorification of Mary:
� forever blessed, forever glorified.
� Blessed are you among women,
� Therefore, let us exclaim with him

Christ is God:
� Intercede with Christ our God
� For you have borne Christ
� The Son of God

Christ as Savior and Deliverer:
� He may grant peace
� the Savior and Deliverer
� Today is the fountainhead of salvation

What is to be saved:
� to the whole world.
� of our souls.
� N/A

Would a Mariology without including these constitutive elements not really be a Mariology? Do these words, phrases, and themes make up the bulwark of our understanding of Mary? What would you think is missing?

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Do you get any better?!

Alex

I am not sure about "replacement" in this case. According to the commentary of St. Simeon of Thessalonika on Vespers in the fifteenth century the 'Hail Mother of God' was already present in Vespers, and was taken right before the final dismissal.

It is not present some manuscripts such as the Sinai or Jerusalem Patriarchate manuscripts (12-13th century) of the Jerusalem ordo. It is present in later Jerusalem ordos but it is taken while the priest censes the Artoklasia at the Litya, with the priest taking up to "for you have born Christ" and the choir/cantor takes the remainder, and not immediately before the dismissal where it is now as per St. Symeon's observations.

With its presence in Symeon's commentary, its lack in some earlier Jerusalem ordos and its presence at a different place in later Jerusalem ordos my guess is that St. Symeon's Vespers shows some influence of Constantinopolitan and/or monastic usage from the Studion, etc. on this aspect instead of Jerusalem.

After the Doxology at Sunday matins there are two special troparia, one for Tones 1,3,5,7 and another for Tones 2,4,6,8 that are customarily appointed (not the troparia from the oktoechos for Sunday divine liturgy and Saturday vespers). Unless it is a feast of the Lord which occurs on Sunday one of these two is always taken on Sundays, even if it is a feast of the Theotokos or a saint.

Any other day than Sunday the festal troparion is, however, generally taken at Matins after the Doxology.

Yet another fascinating question of accretions and local variations in the Byzantine liturgical order.

Dear Diak,

And to that I say: Rejoice, Great Randolph, Servant of Christ and His Church!

Alex

I�ve got a question for Alex
Alex,
it�s common in spanish language prayers to refer to the Blessed Virgen as "sant�sima" (most holy), as in "sant�sima virgen Mar�a" (most holy Virgin Mary).

Do you think this is a linguistic or cultural peculiarity of the spanish language or could it have been a reaction, a long time ago, to those Greek objections to Latin usage?

Homo ingens ???

Dear Manuel,

How fascinating! I loved your point last year about the Child Jesus celebrations at the feast of Candlemas!

I don't think the Church of Spain would have been sensitive to the Greeks in this respect - I think what you have presented is further evidence of the indigenous religious culture of Iberian Peninsula concerning its Mariology.

The Church of Spain was, as we know, a Particular Church that was not under the Roman Patriarchate at first.

Her Fathers are honoured highly in the East and her theological contributions to the Church universal are both unique and highly prized.

I think the more we study the Church of Spain and the particular theological and liturgical riches of the Hispanic peoples, the more we'll see how closely related their patrimony is to the Churches of the East as well.

I did not know that about the Spanish Tradition - I am very happy to learn of it! Thank you for bringing it forward here for us at this Forum.

Alex