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Tone 2 Samohlasny is somewhat different in Galician chant compared to Carpatho-Rusyn.
There is also a Tone 2 Samohlasny setting for "We have seen" in Galician chant in use in some UGCC parishes.

It seems Tone 2 is "the tone" for that particular hymn.

You can find Carpathian music in use in the OCA earlier than djs mentions, but usually in three-hole individual loose pages. I have a couple from the 70s.

Diak, In addition to the Samohlasen melody the Carpatho-Rusins also sing it to what we call the �Bohlar� (�Bulgarian�) melody. It got lost when the English settings were published but I have set it to the Bohlar 2 melody and it is in use in a number of parishes as an alternate. Do the Ukrainians have more than one setting? Admin

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Tone 2 is the tone of the Hymn �We have seen the true light� from the Vespers of Pentecost.

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There have always been holdouts. The OCA parish I used to go to for Saturday Vespers and Matins in Pennsylvania always sung the Paschal Sticheri (�Pascha svja scennaja nam dnes pokazasja� � from the Kissing of the Cross at Pascha Matins) directly from the Blue Sokol. That particular OCA parish managed to retain a few bits and pieces of their original Carpathian chant.

I have seen the music for that Bulharsky setting somewhere but have not actually heard it in Carpatho-Rusyn usage, only the Samohlasny. There are some fine choral arrangements of that hymn as well.

Bulharskiy is an interesting subject in Carpathian music in and of itself, with the Galicians keeping 7 tones and the Carpatho-Rusyns 5 as I recall.

I understand the 7, my interpretation being since Bulharskiy in the Galician usage was mainly for Litya at Great Vespers, and there being basically no Litya stikhera in Tone 7. But why three tones have fallen out of usage in Boksaj etc. collections of Carpatho-Rusyn chant is worthy of at least one dissertation.

Incognitus, I was fishing on Cape Cod this weekend, and wonder of wonders, bumped into Greg. He seems to have found himself "locked out" of the Forum without a key, and assures me that the survey is proceeding well abroad. I for one didn't see the blatant ad hominems from him which usually get people kicked off the Forum.

In the meantime I spoke to my former pastor from Velikij Bychkiv, who for those unfamiliar with the geography of Zakkarpatia is in the far southern area of the Eparchy of Uzhorod.

He has made an offer to answer any questions regarding his ecclesiastical identity, which consists of three words, the last two being "Greek Catholic" and the first beginning with a "U" followed by a "K"....But if you want to hear it from him I can arrange that. He can show you his scars from the gulag as well. He's also going to call a few parish priest friends in his home area as well for his own edification and entertainment and tell them about this discussion.

But that is not even the point here. The turf-consciousness has far exceeded frivolity here. Do most people who reside within the boundaries of America indeed call themselves Americans regardless of particular ethnic provenance?

This does nothing of advancing the evangelical mission of our church. Get over it and move on. Uzhorod and Mukachevo are both within Ukraine and will be for the forseeable future.

Perhaps the Orthodox are right. Small sui iuris churches dependent directly on Rome, Roman bishops being appointed with bi-ritual faculties, sounds completely Uniate. Greek Catholics have no right accusing Orthodox in any way of jursidictionalism. This thread amply demonstrates that.

We have the opportunity, with charity and love, to create a unified Greek Catholic patriarchate of Rus'. Within a truly Constantinopolitan model, there is room for everyone. The diverse churches under the omphorion of Constantinople demonstrate that.

The success of the patriarchal structure of the Melkites should also be taken as an example. If we really want to be BYZANTINE, let's quit pretending and return to that hierarchal system as well.

It is curious, that some of the people most ardently advocating a unified Greek Catholic hierarchy in North America seem to be the most adamant about not applying the same principle in Europe. Are we not very ethnically diverse here in the USA? What's good for the goose...

Please check out Greg�s accusations against the person of Father John Zeyack. I asked Greg several times to withdraw them and all he did was make excuses. His behavior caused his suspension of posting privileges.

Why is it so necessary for those in the Ukrainian Catholic Church to claim that Carpatho-Rusins are really ethnic Ukrainians?

How did Hritzko�s continuing insistence that Carpatho-Rusins don�t really exist as an ethnic group contribute to the advancing of the evangelical mission of the Church?

Would it not have been more Christian for Hritzko to respect that people have the right to determine the ethnic group they belong to?

Would it not have been more Christian for Hritzko not to make personal accusations against a priest now serving at the seminary in Uzhorod?

Diak states that his former pastor from Velikij Bychkiv considers himself to be Ukrainian. Good for him. He is free to state what he believes about his ethnicity. If he considers himself to be Ukrainian I respect him for his decision and honor it. His stating this does not, however, mesh with the people from the Carpathian Mountains, 90% of which voted 10 years ago to leave the country of Ukraine because they did not consider themselves to be Ukrainian (Kiev refused to act upon Carpatho-Rusin autonomy). Why not just allow these Carpathians the freedom to determine their own identity?

Since I'm not some sort of stand-in for Hritzko, I shall not respond to questions concerning him - he's old enough to speak for himself.

Have been doing some reading in the last few days. Not only is this problem much more emotional than it is anything else; we are also faced with ambiguity from those offering what should be source materials. To name a name - and I DO have rock-solid evidence! - Father Athanasius Pekar, OSBM, wrote a book about the history of the Church in Trancarpathia, published in 1967 by the Basilians. Fine. Good footnotes and excellent bibliography. On the ethnic question, the reader would think that his commitment to a Ukrainian understanding of the matter is even exaggerated - he repeatedly refers to "the Ukrainian Catholic Church" when he means the eparchies of Mukadchevo and Preshov. He quotes various people as having used the term "Ukrainian", even in some contexts which make that particularly unlikely.

But either there is more than one Father Athanasius Pekar, OSBM, or he trims his sales to fit the wind. Pittsburgh has published some smaller books and booklets by this man; the terminology suddenly changes. Someone published a bilingual edition of his book referred to above this time in English and in what is presumably a variety of Rusyn. The terminology changes again.

So without doing some independent research it is impossible to know who said what on the ethnic question, since the learned author has not scrupled to alter the evidence. There are words for that. I repeat, I have rock-sold proof (meaning I have the publications in question, and others can obtain them with relatively little difficulty. Scripta manent!).

So if I could reach the learned author at the moment, my first question would be whether he is a Ukrainian, a Ruthenian, a Rusyn or just a chameleon.

Incognitus

In the final analysis they are all "Rus", aren't they? With very little national conciousness until modern times? They were members of the Church, and citizens of this or that village. But the Russians say they are all Russians, the Ukrainians that they are Ukrainians, and they themselves say now one thing, now another. My parish, in the early years, consistently called themselves Russians, now they are Rusyns or Slovaks. And I am one confused Celt...

Admin, please read my last post. I don't quite understand the obfuscation of the point. I do definitely agree that some statements of Greg were out of line, as were also some of yours now re-reading everything. I do not pretend to be his mouthpiece nor will I do so in the future.

I will only say that I find ultra-nationalism of any flavor to be distasteful and it has unfortuntately tainted many of our parishes. As Incognitus has correctly pointed out, and as has been manifested here between yourself and Greg, it is difficult to remove emotion from discussions of nationality and ethnicity.

The fact that the inhabitants of the Eparchy of Uzhorod are now Ukrainian citizens detracts nothing from their ethnic provenance. That I have reiterated time and time again and I could care less whether it was in Slovakia or Hungary. The fact is, the USSR has dissolved, and the Eparchy of Uzhorod is now entirely within the border of an independent Ukraine.

The boudaries for the Eparchy of Uzahorod are nearly entirely now within Ukraine. That is the civil and legal reality. And I don't think most want to be either part of Slovakia or Hungary.

The intention of at least my point has nothing to do with ethnicity of Carpatho-Rusyns. I don't speak for either Greg or you for that matter and only for myself, as a concerned Greek Catholic who is seeing churches close in the USA from both the PM and the UGCC. Would that we learn the painful lessons from that divisive exercise in the USA.

The inhabitants of the Eparchy of Uzhorod are Ukrainians of Rusyn descent just as Americans are citizens of whatever ethnic provenance. That is simply common sense and the current political reality. Americans of various descent call themselves American, because they live within the USA. That should be simple enough.

You have advocated a unified Greek Catholic administration in America which will cover a much greater ethnic diversity than that in the lands of Rus' which I am advocating, not based on particular ethnicity but that of a larger organic goal to return to an actual BYZANTINE form of governance and not the anomalous Uniate forms we have presently. I don't care who lives within the territory of Rus', even from other worlds at that point.

If we can't unite even amongst ourselves as descendents of the Cyrillo-Methodian evangelical experience and children of Rus'(at least spiritually and theologically) we have much bigger problems awaiting on the horizon. That is my primaruy concern. The evangelical message of Jesus Christ becomes folly to those on the "outside" who witness these types of arguments that Greg and yes, you, keep having over this issue.

Let's get on with what is really important. Let the politicians draw the borders and let us unite according to our Constantinopolitan heritage.

Dear Diak,

First of all, greetings in the Name of Christ!

While I see the point you are making, I think that the anomaly here is being caused by the fears that the Carpatho-Rusyns have about having their religious/cultural identity affected by being too closely aligned with the UGCC.

The vision you are advocating would have been more likely and more easily realized in the earlier times of the truly catholic vision of the Kyivan Orthodox Metropolia, the Metropolia that had such a great Christian influence over so many peoples and regions.

Owing to historical and cultural circumstances, the UGCC has become a church that tends to be more inwardly focused with respect to its national culture. And something of the former catholic, missionary and evangelical vision has been lost, or at least I believe the argument can be made that it has been lost.

Perhaps this is something that will be eventually worked out as the countries of Eastern Europe reset themselves after so many years of economic and cultural repression - I would like to hope that this would be so.

And the Carpatho-Rusyns would not be the first who would fear religious/cultural assimilation.

As we know, the Armenians participating in the ecumenical talks with Eastern Orthodoxy have likewise expressed their fears in this same vein.

At this time, I would just like to express my view that the Carpatho-Rusyns belong to the ethno-national group that they SAY they belong to.

No one, not the Ukrainians, nor the Russians, nor the Slovaks etc. have a right to call the Carpatho-Rusyns by a name that they themselves do not choose to be called by - and this is now recognized by the international social scientific community who acknowledged that they are the fourth member of the Eastern Slavic family.

That the current government of Ukraine refuses to acknowledge this is appalling - period. It should have been tossed out on its ear a long time ago as a body of communist hold-overs from the previous regime. Hopefully, they will be thrown out after the next election.

The Ukrainian poet and bard, Taras Shevchenko, spent his life defending the oppressed and not only his own Ukrainian people as we know.

He defended the oppressed wherever he found them, including the Caucasus peoples during his ten-year exile for opposing the Tsarist regime (as he said about them, "Glory is on your side! Truth is on your side!").

I'm sure that he would say the same (and his words may rightly be applied) to the Carpatho-Rusyn people in their struggle to maintain their religious/cultural identity.

Alex

Here's a link with a midi file for a Carpathian chant "Litrugy Ending / Dismissal"

http://www.podoben.com/liturgymixed.htm

It's bulgar on the Vidichom, and Tone 2 samohlasen on the Da Ispolnatsja. And a familiar but not common setting in Sokol for Budi Imja.

Never heard this before; very nice.

P.S. Hi Alex.

Well I hate follow Alex's lovely post, but...

Common sense?
People came to America by choice.
The matter of choice is far less clear in Sub-Carpathia eeven today, in light of the referendum noted by Administrator.

Common sense or not, I think it's clear that Basques do not see themselves as Spaniards of Basque descent. More contentious examples could be cited (Constaninopolitan Greeks as ... ). Alex has spoken very well on the issue. IMO that failure to respect people's opinions of who they are rather than telling who they ought to think they are is the attitude that causes discomfort and hinders unity.

djs, THANK YOU. That is indeed a nice setting. I think it has been there a few months. Many years to Archpriest Theodore Heckman of the OCA!!! And may he inspire new generations of students who can appreciate the riches of our full Constantinopolitan tradition.

But to examine your point, and to perhaps clarify a bit more, those Basques residing within Spain are Spanish citizens. I agree they may not like it. But it is common sense and realistic to recognize they reside within national borders. That is an objective observation. What they "like" is another matter and is subjective. But from what their driver's licences say, where their mailing address, etc. there is the reality of the nation where they reside.

Those Rusyns are Ukrainian citizens, and they may also not like it. The fact is, they are Ukrainian citizens of Rusyn descent. Rusyns living on the Slovak side are Slovak citizens. The borders are the way they are presently. Neither I nor you can change that. It is reality. I will say they most certainly have the right to work for whatever civil agreement works best for them.

I am completely comfortable with their Carpatho-Rusyn particular ethnic identity. That has, at least with me, never been a question in any of this. For this to work, fears of assimilation on one side as well as any sense of spiritual pride and trimphantalism on the other will have to be overcome.

And Alex, what can I say, I'm BYZANTINE. Tak pravda.
Yes, there are some aspects that will be difficult with what I have proposed, but not impossible to overcome given enough charity on all sides and desire to be truly BYZANTINE. Perhaps a bit Quixotic, I'll admit.

But Metropolitan Andrei was able to gather a much wider and united Greek Catholic presence and unity, from Blessed Theodore of Uzhorod to Bishop Dionisii in Krizhevci, who all rallied around and supported him. That simply does not exist now. But I'm not giving up on it yet.

Diak:

Podoben is indeed quite a sight!
I just found out, moreover, that midi files, which download super quickly, can be opened in notation files. Noteworthy is a little dicey, but Finale products do OK.

And you wonder why EC , OC and for that matter some RCc are seen as paranoid ethnic enclaves?!!!!!

A an ethnic minority myself I understand the passion and concern for correct representation and respect, but as someone looking for a church home this is the kind of stuff that makes me deeply, deeply hesitant. I don't want to become part of anybody's ethnic tiffs!I've got enough problem with my own people's stuff!! Though I feel drawn to EC and RC it is daunting working through the cultural stuff. this nitpicking is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!I don't know if I can or want to become part of this world. All I want to do is worship!!

A very frustrated Indigo