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So whe we say that they are not Orthodox it is because they are not in communion with another church that is Orthodox? But is the True Orthodox Church of Greece in communion with any Orthodox?Because the HOCNA is in communion with them.


Poor sinner Chad

Chad,

We have to go down a list. The first question is "do they hold on to the faith of the Fathers?" Then if the answer is yes, we need to ask "and are they in union with the other Orthodox Churches". If they are not, then they probably are not Orthodox, unless it is a situation owing to persecution by state authorities in which case "all bets are off."

The Churches of the Ancient patriarchates, and Moscow, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc etc etc are all Orthodox. Those not in communion with them are strictly speaking, NOT ORTHODOX.

The Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece (the Old Calendarist body that denies grace to other, "modernist Orthodox") is in a logical position since it believes IT is the right ones, and the rest are not (it has a siege mentality). But by being set off from the rest over a perceived heresy that I believe is not evident in "mainstream" Orthodoxy, it is cut off.

HOCNA is not in union with anyone, by the way. They were in union with the True Orthodox Church of Greece, yes, until 1997, when they split off to form their own cult-church.

anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

On a point of precision, if this is what it is, rather than deciding who is "Orthodox" or not, wouldn't it be better to say "who is in communion with worldwide Orthodoxy?"

And, also, do you consider yourself to be "Orthodox" and, if you do, why since you are not in communion with worldwide Orthodoxy?

Alex

Dear in Christ, Alex,

Perhaps it would be better to say "who is in communion with worldwide Orthodoxy." I do not see that big of a difference, though; perhaps you are trying to make a distinction that I am not grasping?

No, I do not consider myself Orthodox because I am not in communion with the Orthodox Church. Perhaps that will change at some point but while I share the beliefs of the Orthodox Church, in my opinion it would be disengenous of me to refer to myself as something I am technically not.

anastasios

On this thread, Athanasios has repeatedly expressed views which, if taken seriously, would inexorably mean that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is not Orthodox. Does he seriously ask anyone to believe such a statement? Incognitus

Nope, because the ROCOR is in communion with the Serbian and Jerusalem patriarchates, and since I have already made a provision for churches that are separated due to persecution (and their longlasting effects), ROCOR is not schismatic.

anastasios

As usual, when I have tried to determine who posseses canonical Orthodoxy, I come away confused .
There are so many intricate qualifications. And there are so many arguments among the Orthodox: you recognize ROCOR but they do not recognize the Moscow patriarchate but are recognized by the Serbs and Jerusalem, who are recognized by Moscow etc.
You're right, things are simpler in Catholicism but you're wrong, that IS the way things are.
And not only Polish National Church members but Orthodox are allowed to receive Communion in the Catholic Church, if they have no recourse to their own ministers, [and I believe on other, I believe,special occasions] As I said, the Catholic Church seems more generous than other Christian bodies.
I'm sorry that you view my statements as polemical, they are really not intended as such. I simply am offering my observations and seeking truth.I certainly have no hostility toward the Orthodox; I have a great love and respect for them, especially the Russians. Most of the twenty-some icons I have completed have been from Russian prototypes. I do come to the Eastern Church from a Roman Catholic background and I must have been spoiled by all the clarity. I also have no hostility toward the West, as so many Byzantines [understandably] do, though it should be noted that Eastern Catholics have in the past often been eager Latinizers. I do find most of the developments of the last, oh, 500 years in the West to be regretable [let's not even talk about the last 50!] I do love Romanesque art and architecture, Gregorian chant, the whole Benedictine and Franciscan traditions, and Latin saints from Francis to Therese. I have reassured concerned RC friends that there is little danger of someone becoming anti-Western who has roamed the streets of Assisi and visited thousand year old Benedictine monasteries and stood in awe before Blessed Fra Angelico's Annunciation.
Hey Anastasios, I think we met last summer at the Romanian Catholic cathedral in Canton. We talked with subdeacon Paul after the liturgy. Was that you?

Daniel,

I can appreciate where you are coming from. When I was first introduced to the East via Eastern Catholicism I thought the Orthodox were just crazy not to want to join us, since they were "so mixed up." But after being around them for several years I realized they're not.

No, I am afraid I have never been to the Romanian Catholic Cathedral in Canton. Is there someone else running around with the name Anastasios?

anastasios

Dear Guys

I don't think it's a matter of being more generous or being selfish, it's just the way Bishops make the interpretation of both ecclesiologies.

There are many cases in which Orthodox do accept and provide sacraments to Roman Catholics (I personaly know Serbian and Romanian priests from Spain who do so). There's a real spirit of helping Catholics who have a reason of conscience to stay separated from their parishes, and many become Orthodox Christians, so it's not a free concession, but a missionary job. Same thing has happened in other countries.

In the USA, where Protestant "anti-Papism" has infiltrated, this is quite strange and I have to acept that many Orthodox are quite opposed to any intercommunion. But again, the Orthodox ecclesiology does not support that a complete intercommunion can work when there's not a real unity.

I also recall that in the past the Catholic Church was also very conservatve about that, and applied rebaptisms and rechrismations of Orthodox and members of other Churches.

I don't see how a comparisson between HOCNA and the SSPX can work, it mkes few sense (maybe there are similarities with sedevacantist groups but I dont really know.)

OK I am very confused by all that you are telling me.Anastasios did you not say that HOCNA was in union and then split off from the True Orthodox Church of Greece? But Father Neketas Palassis of St Nectarios (HOCNA) said that they were in union with them.They even list Metropolitain Makarios (Locum Tenens Church of Greece) as their Heirarch.So as you can see I cant get a clear picture on them.And by the way I dont have any problem with the Orthodox spiderweb of Apostolic succession

This is going to confuse you more but here is the history of the Old Calendar movement in grueling detail:

Timeline [egoch.org]

Note that in 1997, the group in purple under Maximos, et al has a green breakoff "Ephrem, Moses..." that is HOCNA.

They broke off from ROCOR and went under Archbishop Auxentius in 1987. When he died, his successor, Metropolitan Maximos, had a fight with HOCNA and they left, declaring him deposed, and named Met. Makarios as "Locum Tenens Archbishop of Athens", i.e., they're the only true ones. But I doubt anyone in Greece recognizes that!!

So to reiterate, HONCA:

1) left the GOA for ROCOR
2) left ROCOR for Akakios and Gabriel
3) (they joined Akakios and Gabriel--independent bishops-- for a few months in 1987, but quickly left)
4) joined Auxentius
5) left Auxentius's successor Maximos in 1997.

anastasios


in Christ,

anastasios

But on your own message board, you just posted something where you wrote "It is permissible for Orthodox to privately hold the opinion that God's grace is in the Catholic Church, but not in the same full way that we know it to be in the Orthodox Church."

Not that it's any of my business anyway, nor does it concern me who is or isn't Orthodox, but there are other "2-faced" posters out there when it comes to Byzantine Catholics; I just hope you're not one of them.

Anastosios- There was a guy in Canton this summer who called himself by a made-up sounding Greek [or maybe it was Russian] name who told me he was the only Byzantine Catholic student at St Vladimir's. So are you new? [there is an old Jesuit principle that I learned from an old Jesuit to the effect that one must always put the most charitable interpretation on things, so I won't speculate on other explanations].
So. Where can I find these lists [diptychs]? And who composed them? And by what authority?
Of course Catholics also believe that the eucharist is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. The point of Ms. O'Connor's "the hell with it " is that a merely symbolic interpretation is pretty worthless, of course.

LR:

Just so it is clear, I am technically a Byzantine Catholic although I am praying that God will clear away some personal problems so that I will be able to enter the Orthodox Church.

I never make the claim to be an Orthodox Christian neither here nor on my own message board. I do believe as the Orthodox, however, and in the case that you quoted, I am acknowledging that I believe that grace is perfectly manifested in the Orthodox Church. If you read my posts here and there in their totality, you will see that I basically believe the Orthodox to be the Church, the Catholics to be part of the Church as well, but imperfectly (kind of like a reverse Dominus Iesus) and I hope for reunion. But as time goes on I become more and more pessimistic. I no longer believe that Catholics and Orthodox are the "same thing" or that there is such a thing as "Orthodox in communion with Rome."

That I write in a way that seems different to you on my board and here is probably due to the fact that I fit in differently among the two communities, have a different audience, and am discussing things from different points of view. I would never want someone to get the impression that I am playing the fence, however.

anastasios

Dear Daniel,

I beleive you met Mr. Xenios, who is one of two Byzantine Catholics studying at St. Vladimir's (this year we added a Roman Catholic to the ranks). Perhaps he does not consider me or did not think of me because he knows that I intend to enter the Orthodox Church some day.

The dyptics are physically written down on paper and kept at the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Since he is first hierarch, he keeps them. If he went into heresy, the other hierarchs would gather together and name a new person as first among equals and the task would fall to him.

Here is a list of the Orthodox Churches in communion with one another:

Orthodox Churches [oca.org]

anastasios