www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West HOCNA

Justinian, your position with respect to the post-1054 Catholic Church is exactly that of the Monophysites to the post-Chalcedonian Church, and of the Arians to the post-Nicene Church.

Consider:
Why do we need all these new doctrines like homoousios? This language is a deviation from the pre-325 Church! The Scriptures and the Apostles never used such language! How can we deviate in this manner?

And:
Why do we need all these new doctrines, like "two natures in Christ"? Such nonsense was unheard of in the pre-451 Church! This is a corruption of the Apostolic Faith!


The fact of the matter is that the Church defines dogma to clarify truths that are ALREADY contained in the Deposit of Faith entrusted to the Apostles. The Petrine primacy is one such truth, borne witness to by countless Fathers and by Christ Himself, but given greater clarity and prominence later on. "Where Peter is, there is the Church."


LatinTrad

There is a difference in the way Catholics and Orthodox use the word "Primacy" in my experience. For Catholics, "primacy" naturally involves the concept of "supremacy"; for Orthodox, "primacy" can exist without "supremacy". Hence, Orthodox can wholeheartedly acknowledge Roman primacy (as I do) while wholeheartedly rejecting things like universal jurisdiction and infallibility as innovations. The connotation of each term is different, in my opinion.

As for the sources you cite, I don't know enough about the authors or the works to say much about it. I've seen Orthodox sources that sound like that, and Orthodox sources that don't sound like that. So I do not know whether the sources you cite actually reflect the historic teaching of the Orthodox Church before it was corrupted by anti-Latin forces, or whether the authors themselves have been influenced by Latin ideas, and are in opposition to the historic teaching of the Orthodox Church. I generally tend to give the Orthodox Church the benefit of the doubt because if it really is so obvious in the Orthodox tradition, even around the time of the split, I can't imagine that it really would've happened. I also tend to give the Orthodox Church the benefit of the doubt because all the arguments I've seen thus far, here and elsewhere, in favour of the Roman teaching have holes in them.

LT,

Justinian, your position with respect to the post-1054 Catholic Church is exactly that of the Monophysites to the post-Chalcedonian Church, and of the Arians to the post-Nicene Church.

You do realise, I hope, that those Churches traditionally thought of as Monophysite are not so, according to your own Church which has, to its satisfaction, studied the issue and come to the conclusion that in Christological matters, we teach the Orthodox faith, and should not be regarded as heretics, Chalcedon notwithstanding. This has led to common Christological declarations, and in some cases even a limited permission for intercommunion. I hope you will consider following the Pope's example.

When you have time, I would appreciate it if you would answer my question in the other thread about the violence done to the Sacraments when celebrated in the Orthodox Church, since it is out of communion with Rome. I don't mean to push the issue, but I really do want to know what you mean.

The Concils of Nicea and Chalcedon were further defined doctrine and to counter heresies that were growing in the Church. After 1054, I am not certain as to what heresies the Roman Church was trying to counter with the new doctrines after 1054. Some may have been a counter to Protestantism, but many over the overdefinitions and new interpretations have been confusing. In some ways the Roman Church could have countered the Protestants by going back to 1054 rather than adding new doctrines, which only furthered the separation.

I am willing to accept the Pope of Rome as First among equals, but not as the universal head of the Church. That person is Jesus Christ. I just can not accept the universal authority of the Pope over the whole Church and I have trouble with the theological doctrines since 1054.

I do pray for union between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I pray that these matters are resolved.

Yeah, right--ye olde Khomakievan ecclesiology, which is (a) utterly unScriptural; (b) utterly unPatristic; and (c) a recipe for jurisdictional chaos. But wait--"jurisdictional chaos"--that's what contemporary EOxy has *got*! What a coincidence.

If you think we're so wrong, Dustin, why do you haunt Catholic boards?

Here's a bit of doggerel I came up with once for ex-Catholics who spend much of their time arguing against their former Church on Catholic boards. Mark Shea blogged it awhile back, along with an excellent commentary on this curious phenomenon:

(sung to the tune of "Sailing, Sailing")

Trolling, trolling,
Over the Catholic boards.
Though "free" from Rome,
We froth and foam
At clueless Papist hordes.

Oh!

Trolling, trolling,
Never let up a smidgen!
We'd rather bait
The Church we hate
Than practice our own religion!



ZT

Dear Zoe,

Please - Anastasios isn't Orthodox, he's still in communon with Rome, just like you and I.

The questions he raises are legitimate ones and are frequently raised by Eastern Catholics (and my uncles).

Can papal jurisdictionalism be affirmed on the basis of Scripture and the Tradition of the first millennium of the Church?

As Tim Cuprisin would say - sources?

(Tim is really going to like me more after today, I just know it . . .)

Alex

Diane, Diane,

I have been a member of this board for years longer than you have, my dear. I stick around because I am 1) interested in the discussions and 2) among friends.

anastasios

Yeah Diane, I really hate the Catholic Church when I just went to Byzantine Catholic confession last Saturday and Roman Mass on Sunday and communed! LOL You crack me up sometimes!

anastasios

Incognitus writes:

[One might also keep in mind that at major Church celebrations in Russia which involve many guests from other Local Churches, it has been necessary for the Moscow Patriarchate to have two distinct Divine Liturgies in different buildings: one for those willing to serve with the OCA hierarchs, and the other for those NOT willing to serve with the OCA hierarchs. If that isn't "setting up altar against altar", I don't know what is.]

REPLY:

Where in God's name do you people come up with these things? Suggest you go on the OCA website and look at the pictures of Metropolitan Herman's visits to Russia and Ukraine in the last few months!

Just two or three months ago Metropolitan Herman was the chief celebrant at the Liturgy served in 'Christ The Saviour Cathedral' which is the largest Cathedral in Russia. The place was crowded with both priests and people. Look at the pictures! And he was the first Hierach of another autocephalous Church to be given this honor by the MP.

Every time I think I've heard it all on this site I'm reminded there is more to come!

OrthoMan

Bob,

Please reread the post.

"One might also keep in mind that at major Church celebrations in Russia which involve many guests from other Local Churches"

Local Churches like the Ecumenical Patriarchate which does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, does not give it a seat or vote at Pan-Orthodox Synods, and will not concelebrate with the Metropolitan at the celebrations Incognitus mentions.

In Christ,
Subdeacon Lance

[Local Churches like the Ecumenical Patriarchate which does not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, does not give it a seat or vote at Pan-Orthodox Synods, and will not concelebrate with the Metropolitan at the celebrations Incognitus mentions.]

What I read was that because of certain Orthodox Hiearchs refusing to concelebrate with the OCA Hierach... two separate Liturgies, in two separate buildings, on two separate Altars have to be set up.

As far as the the EP or its representatives not concelebrating with the OCA......You might want to access the consecration of 'Christ The Saviour Cathedral' where all the Hierachs of all the canonical Orthodox automonous and autocephalous churches were present and CONCELEBRATED along with the OCA Hierachs. True, the only Patriarch missing was the EP but his Hierachs were present and concelebrated with the OCA Hierachs. The main reason the EP was not there was out of courtesy. Because if he had been present, according to the rubics, he as 'first amongst equals' would have been the chief celebrant. Thus taking away the glory of such a wonderful day from the MP.

Here in Philly, the 'Eastern Clergy brotherhod concelebrate in each others parishes all the time.
Including the Greek priests serving in our OCA Cathedral.

If what you are claiming is true than the following upcoming event would not be able to take place in the Greek Orthodox main Archdiocean Cathedral in NYC this coming Monday, now would it?
Metropolitan Herman would never have been able to host such an event in the main Cathedral of the EP's Archdiocese here in the U.S.

----------

http://www.oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=410

NEW YORK, NY [SCOBA/SCOOCH] -- Members of the United Nations community are
warmly invited to attend an Orthodox Prayer Service and reception at Holy
Trinity Greek Orthodox Archdiocesan Cathedral, 319 East 74 Street, New
York, NY at 6:30 p.m. on Monday, October 6, 2003.

Hosted by the Primate of the Orthodox Church in America, Metropolitan
Herman, the service is being organized under the auspices of the Standing
Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas [SCOBA] and the
Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches [SCOOCH]. The event marks
the third time that an Orthodox prayer service has been celebrated for the
UN community.

In addition to Metropolitan Herman, speakers at the service include His
Excellency, Ambassador Armen Martirossian, Permanent Representative of
Armenia to the UN and His Excellency, Ambassador Adamantios Vassilakis,
Permanent Representative of Greece to the UN.

"Last year's service, held at New York's Saint Vartan Armenian Cathedral,
attracted over 200 participants, including ambassadors to the UN from
Armenia, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Cyprus, Finland, Moldova, Russia,
Syria and Ukraine," according to Mr. David Wagschal, a spokesman for the
Orthodox Church in America. "Speakers at last year's service included His
Excellency, Sergey Lavrov, Permanent Representative of the Russian
Federation to the UN, and Mr. Benon Sevan, Undersecretary-General of the UN."

The service is also open to Orthodox Christians from the New York area and
the general public.

For further information contact Mr. David Wagschal at 516/922-0550 or
dwagschal@oca.org.

� 2003 Orthodox Church in America
Office of Communication - info@oca.org

------------

OrthoMan

Dear Orthoman,

Yes, I would take what these guys are saying with a grain of salt.

Uniates, you know . . .

Who da man?

YOU da man!

You da ORTHOMAN!!

God love you!

Alex

OrthoMan, with all due respect, you have not proven that what incognitus said was factually wrong.

I understand your zeal to defend the OCA/MP Church, but maybe we should just ask incognitus for his source?

LatinTrad

[OrthoMan, with all due respect, you have not proven that what incognitus said was factually wrong.]

Read my last post regarding the concelebration of 'Christ the Saviour Cathedral' in Moscow and the 'UU Prayer Service' TO BE HOSTED BY METROPOLITAN HERMAN at the Greek Orthodox Archdiocesean Cathedral this coming Monday.

[I understand your zeal to defend the OCA/MP Church, but maybe we should just ask incognitus for his source?]

Ok! Incogniitus what is YOUR source and where is YOUR proof?

By the way, there is no such church as the OCA/MP. They are two administratively separate entities.

Alex write:

[Yes, I would take what these guys are saying with a grain of salt.

Uniates, you know . . .]

Funny, the word Uniate never came to mind. I did however think to myself, 'This guy must be Ukrainian'!

Love ya too, big guy!

OrthoMan

Posted by anastasios:

"I stick around because I am 1) interested in the discussions and 2) among friends."

The discussions are interesting and you help to make them so. You are indeed among brothers and sisters who are your friends.

We hold you close to our hearts.

Steve


PS.

Now, if you want someone to ask you to stay in our communion of Churches, consider it done.

That being said:

May the Lord make your path home level and straight.

Of course, one could ask why, if you think Orthodoxy is so wrong, you "haunt" Orthodox boards?