|
0 members (),
280
guests, and
106
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,525
Posts417,643
Members6,178
| |
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930 |
This seems to be an interesting paper. Any comments on it? MY BELIEF IN THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DOCTRINE Part I (there are three parts, each page leads you on) By Daniel Joseph Barton http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/barton1.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Pani Rose,
The author doesn't seem to take the Orthodox side seriously at all in discussing this doctrine and is trying to make the argument that EC's should accept it and its underlying Augustinian theology.
That is certainly NOT what the Catholic Church means when she asks EC's to return to their Eastern spiritual roots.
That Mary was conceived in holiness is something the East has always confessed (notwithstanding WHICH definition of Original Sin we prefer) and established the feast of the "Conception of Saint Anne" in the sixth century - something that the West was very slow to accept on its local calendars later on.
I personally don't agree with the argumentation that Kallistos Ware puts forth against the IC doctrine - but then again he is not the ultimate Orthodox authority in any event.
Sometimes, Eastern CAtholics can be their own worst enemies.
Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16
Global Moderator Member
|
|
Global Moderator Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 10,090 Likes: 16 |
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
The author doesn't seem to take the Orthodox side seriously at all in discussing this doctrine and is trying to make the argument that EC's should accept it and its underlying Augustinian theology.
That is certainly NOT what the Catholic Church means when she asks EC's to return to their Eastern spiritual roots. Alex, I agree; your perception of him is very consistent with the outlook that Daniel has long espoused on CINEast with respect to this and other subjects. In my opinion, he typifies a way of thinking that says: "Since the Latins have a great viewpoint on _____ (fill in with any subject of your choosing), let's adopt it as our (Eastern) way too!" Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Neil, The only thing EC's should be adopting from the West is . . . those who wish to become EC!  God bless! Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 284 |
Dear Alex,
I read your comment above with a smirk! I have to agree with you! I repeat for the 100th time here, that if an ECC were near me, I would sure be there, a lot!
It hit home for me again while perusing the hymnbook selections we were singing for Christmas at my RCC. The traditional Christmas hymns sung in the RCC were written in the 1700-1800s for the most part. How many of them were written by Protestants is only my guess, but I would guess at least 50%. Perhaps a musician here knows more. On the other hand the ECC has the deep, theological and mystical chants from the earliest centuries. My heart is filled with longing again for a renewal of this rich Eastern tradition all over the world, but especially right here in the mountains of Virginia is my own selfish prayer.
But in our heart's longing is the spirit God has placed there. Our desires and prayers will not go unrewarded.
Peace and the holiness of Christ be with you,
Tammy
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930 |
Neil I didn't know that was who wrote it.
I have a really hard time getting Romans to understand that it was always there. I mean from the beginning the Church understood Mary's role, it wasn't like the Holy Spirit knocked on the door and handed them something new.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear Tammy, You mean Charles Wesley was NOT a Roman Catholic? One learns something every day . . .  Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
it wasn't like the Holy Spirit knocked on the door and handed them something new. You mean that there are Romans who claim that this was something new????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
Mr Barton may not have given a sufficiently serious treatment of all of the Orthodox persepctives on this issue, but then again he did treat it with more seriousness than the dimissive remarks made about his essay and himself. Sometimes, Eastern Catholics can be their own worst enemies. Probably true. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26,405 Likes: 38 |
Dear djs, Actually, ANY of the Orthodox perspectives. I was just waiting for you to come in to defend him . . . Happy New Year! Alex
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 499
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 499 |
I found this quite interesting.
Regardless of the viewpoints, I don't think that the Dogma of the IC, as it applies to the Theotokos, would be a unity breaker.
Brad
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 53
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 53 |
Very interesting article. i do find that Daniel Joseph Barton's defense of the IC by citing St. John the Forerunner being sanctified in the womb a bit unfounded... while St. John may have been sanctified in the womb (i have not read the Church Fathers on this), he was not Immaculately Conceived, was he?
In my small and humble opinion, the IC should have been relegated to Latin canon law and not raised to the level of dogma, but then again, i am not in a position of authority. This is only my opinion.
Peace,
the_grip
“A time is coming when people will go mad and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'”
--Abba St. Anthony the Great
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
... while St. John may have been sanctified in the womb ..., he was not Immaculately Conceived, was he? What an intriguing comment... So how long after conception was he sanctified?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,941 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 53
Junior Member
|
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 53 |
Originally posted by djs: ... while St. John may have been sanctified in the womb ..., he was not Immaculately Conceived, was he?
So how long after conception was he sanctified? i have no idea. Do the Church Fathers indeed claim that John was Immaculately Conceived? Pardon my ignorance here. Yours, the_grip
“A time is coming when people will go mad and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'”
--Abba St. Anthony the Great
|
|
|
|
|
