www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West BELIEF IN THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION DOCTRINE

What I found intriguing was the idea of stipulating to sanctification in the womb, but objecting to immaculate conception. You seem willing to accept of sanctification at any point in gestation EXCEPT its inception. I find that position intriguing.

i am not particularly objecting to sanctification at conception, rather, i am stating that his argument of John's sanctification in the womb is not necessarily in support of his position - unless, that is, the Church has taught that John was sanctified at conception in the way Mary was according to the teachings of the dogma of the IC (in which case, why is the IC of John also not dogmatic?). It would also presume the Western understanding of Original Sin which itself is not dogmatic.

Regarding sanctification at conception, i do not doubt that it is possible. My hesitation is at the dogma of the IC is in its explicits - i simply don't know the explicit details of the holiness of our Lady, and i don't know of any Church Fathers that push this point explicitly as requirement unto salvation. As with all things, however, i am prone to error and could be wrong.

i should also state that the notion of the IC is probably not a breaking point of unity (to me, anyways - small as i am). It is my experience that it is the dogmatic inferences of it that are the sharp edges of the issue.

Peace to you,
the_grip

Sorry to be too busy work on answers, but your remarks are very nice, and make me want to comment. The first part of the quote gives a lot of food for thought on the issue of the necessity of the dogma. The second... well, the link to exclusively Western ideas of Original Sin - whatever they may be - that link is frequently invoked never rigorously forged.

As to the impediment to unity. In my youth, discussions of "issues" with Russian Orthodox Greek Catholics and Syrian Orthodox revolved around papacy, filioque, and maybe epiclesis. Now, with the OCA and Antiochian Orthodox there is considerably more attention to Marian Dogma. Wonder what happened?

From an old Eastern Orthodox Catechism

Q. How did He become a man?

A. At the time when the Virgin Mary was consecrated to the service of God,
and was in the Temple, the Archangel Gabriel came and announced to her the
unprecedent miracle which would take place within her. Then the Holy Spirit
descended and, after He had first cleansed her from the original sin, gave
her the power to conceive within her the Son of God, who after nine months
was born a man.

How this helps?

In Jesus & Mary,
+Fr. Gregory

I don't know about OCA people elsewhere, only in my area. Their one church in this area is made up heavily of people who were unhappy and left other churches. To no one's great surprise, they are still unhappy, but now they are Orthodox. Can a Baptist change his spots? He will probably be just as argumentative no matter where he goes. The local OCA priest tells me that Mary was not immaculately conceived, but she was without sin. Is this hairsplitting? You decide for yourself. Is there a difference in dogma here, or just a desire to oppose anything that comes from the RC Church? I don't think the pettiness and pickiness is as common in historic Orthodox jurisdictions. The Greek Orthodox here are very reasonable and lovable people. OCA, judging by the folks here, evidently feels it has something to prove, whether to itself or others. Beats me. If you have a better explanation, please share it with me. I would love to hear it.

It is an interesting to ask, Father, when this teaching of sanctification at the Annunciation developed. Here's a link to an essay by DTB:

http://www.cin.org/imconcep.html

btw Father's Demetry's catechsism is on-line and has some very interesting comments on the Fall and Original Sin.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/catechis.html

Thanks for the cin.org article. That's a keeper.

I seriously ask you to visit more OCA Churches!!! We are wonderful people!!!! Of course, you wil find the convert mentality in every Church but please do not judge the entire OCA by those you see in one particular parish. I don't think the CHurch of Fathers Schmemann and Meyendorff thinks it has anything to "prove"

Peace,
Brian Seraphim

Brian, I am sure OCA people are wonderful. The ones I have met here are a bit argumentative about anything involving Rome. That is my limited experience with OCA. And wouldn't you know, the most argumentative are converts. Some are converts several times over since they have already been everything else. The congregation used to be conservative Episcopalian before becoming Orthodox. The only other Orthodox here are the Greeks, and the Antiochians who are actually Old Catholics. I do hope to visit some other churches next summer while on vacation.

Dear All,

I have my own unique viewpoint on the Immaculate Conception.

For one, I heard that it was not accepted by certain RCC saints, (I believe Saint Thomas Aquinas and SAint Katherine of Sienna), and also heard that it was accepted by certain Greek saints or theologians.

Yet the Immaculate Conception was revealed to two highly miraculous RCC saints in the 19th century. It seems that our Lord in all His Wisdom, has presented beliefs that appear contradictory.

The contradiction is not a lie or deceit on some Saints part, (as many would like to believe), nor does it change our Lord's 'Truths'.

Rather, taking into account that our minds are not able to fully comprehend God's Wisdoms, maybe, just maybe, our Lord enlightens certain saints with only partial comprehensions in order to fight some heresy that might have appeared.

Of course one could always be certain, that whenever something is made dogma in the RCC, the Orthodox Church will immediately take the opposite stand.

Zenovia

Dear Friends,

Christ is Born! Let us Glorify Him!

Whenever we speak of the Theotokos being sanctified in the womb AND the Immaculate Conception, we need to understand the distinction between the two terms.

It is easy to think of one being the same as the other, but that isn't the case and isn't helpful in these discussions.

The IC is about preventing the "stain of Original Sin" from ever being contracted by the Most Holy Theotokos and from her Conception.

In other words, without being conceived immaculately, the Mother of God would have been born with the stain of Original Sin.

RC theologians today understand the notion of "stain" in a way that is not necessarily the way Eastern theologians have always understood it.

I don't care to go into that issue any further right now.

The Eastern perspective is that the Mother of God was sanctified at her Conception.

There would not have been a Feast of the Conception of Saint Anne otherwise or that of the Nativity of the Theotokos.

And we should know that Original Sin in the East has nothing to do with "inherited guilt" or a stain of actual sin passed down from Adam (again, we're not equating this with RC perspectives - I'm leaving that alone).

The Mother of God was sanctified perfectly at her Conception and was born a Saint (indeed, the Saint of Saints).

There was no need for the East to canonize this as a dogma as the "Lex orandi" principle was already there.

The same is true about the St John the Baptist's holy Conception, which is honoured with a Feast day as well. He was already sanctified at that time in the womb of his mother. Western tradition sets John's sanctification at the time of the Visitation.

Again, no need to codify this view of the Forerunner's Conception.

St Nicholas of Bari as well has a feast of his nativity on August 11 in the Orthodox calendar - he too, by the lex orandi, was sanctified at his conception in the womb of his mother and so was born a saint.

Some have posited that St John the Theologian, who the East believes was translated to heaven body and soul, was likewise sanctified from his Conception.

These cases are not "Immaculate Conceptions" where the stain of Original Sin is kept away from the souls of these holy people with special, exalted roles to play in salvation history.

They are sanctifications by the Holy Spirit that made perfect Temples of these persons with His Indwelling at their Conception.

Even if the Holy Spirit had not sanctified them, there would not have been a need for an Immaculate Conception for the Theotokos to declare her free of actual sin of any kind.

It is a matter of complete All-Holiness, rather than what could be understood in the IC as the "negative" idea of simply "preventing."

Ultimately, both sides take different paths to come to the same conclusion.

However, I understand that RC perspectives are now very close to the Eastern one on this matter.

Alex

A clarification. The essay is actually not mine but is the work of Fr Casimir Kucharek.

It's still a keeper, no matter who wrote it!

Well, one can look at that from two perspectives. Either that Orthodoxy would always respond negatively to any dogmatic statement from Rome or more accurately, that Orthodoxy does not make dogma by "pronouncements" such as was the case with the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. It is not the way that the Eastern Church "does" theology.

Dear Brian,

Blessed new year to you, my brother in Christian Orthodoxy.

What Zenovia is describing is what I, as a cradle Orthodox imbued with the ethos and mentality of many of my fellow cradles, (which I won't get into: suffice it to say, it is like the sibling rivalry of an estranged younger brother to an older brother) like to call 'a knee jerk reaction'. LOL!

Ofcourse, we take different approaches to theology-- that is a cultural given-- but even Bishop Kallistos Ware has spoken of Orthodox reactions to the RC church...and do not think that they are benign--they are changing our age old traditions and beliefs as we speak. (ie: as also described by Bishop Kallistos--the belief in the Assumption of our blessed Lady Theotokos)

Getting back to topic, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, at the end of the 1800's, in a correspondence with the Pope mentioned many Orthodox grievances.

Among those he mentioned the unilateral 'dogamatizing' of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, but nothing of the actual title.

I firmly believe that with a really open mind like that of the saints, and even more important, with a truly humble heart, all differences between East and West CAN be understood and worked out. I never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit in abolishing ego on both sides, and of setting up love and unity.

Fondly in Christ,
Alice