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Dear Cantor Joseph,

You said that Mary is not mentioned as having been with the Apostles at Pentecost.

I think you are wrong.

In the first chapter of Acts, the Apostles are listed along with Mary the mother of Jesus, among others, who continued "with one accord in prayer and supplication." (verse 14)

In the second chapter, it is stated "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." (verse 1).

The Church, by approving icons of Pentecost with the Mother of God, has also affirmed that she was indeed with the Apostles, along with other women who worked with them.

Women were present at the Resurrection. They were present at Pentecost too.

Alex

francis,

Thanks for your very thoughtful reply. i do find your point valid in the Latin church, but i still struggle with this outside of it. Since i still can't seem to come to grips (no pun intended) with the universal Papal authority, i am wrestling with this. i find the main reasoning for this to be along the lines of (albeit this is a simplified way of putting it), "The Pope said so, so it's dogma." Apart from that, i can't find grounds for the explicit details. As i said before, i definitely agree with the results of what the Immaculate Conception espouses (as i do with Transubstantiation, which was just mentioned). i don't think any Christian could dispute the results.

i definitely know that i could be wrong about my position. May the Lord save me from error if so, and i would appreciate a prayer if indeed you think i am in error.

Orthodox Catholic,
Thanks for your thoughtful posts as well. Is what you said above true? Does the Latin church only require this of those who are in the Latin church? i thought dogmas were to be binding on all Christians.

Your friend,
the_grip

Dear Grip,

I guess the question is whether the Latin Church can force a doctrine and its theological formulation on other Churches that have always accepted the "pith and substance" of the same doctrine (ie. Mary's total holiness and sinlessness), but have other theological perspectives that are non-Latin (or non-Augustinian).

In that case, if the Latin Church insists on "forcing" such on other Churches, what it is really doing is forcing nothing else than Latin theology, rather than universal Christian truth.

Alex

Alex,

Time elapsed since stating earlier, "When they entered the city ... All those devoted themselves with one accord to prayer ... with some women, and Mary ..." (Acts 1:13,14)

Then the author states, "During those days ... Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers ..." (Acts 1:15)

Later, Acts 2:1 states, "When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together."

Who are they? This is the big question.

In Byzantine iconography, "they" may include only the Apostles at Pentecost with tongues of fire. Sometimes, Mary is seated in the middle (without the "other women" mentioned in Acts 1:14), not because she is the prime Apostle, but because she is the "heart" of the Church.

Who was in that room at the time of Pentecost is made clear in later verses. Peter's speech at Pentecost counters the arguments that the multitude of languages spoken was because they were drunk.

We read: "Then Peter stood up with the Eleven ..." and again, "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, ..." (Acts 2:14, 37) The Eleven (actually, The Twelve including Peter) does not include Mary or any other women.

Though Mary and the "other women" were mentioned earlier in Acts, other events later occured when Mary and the other women were not present or at least implied in Acts.

Of course, all history is written by the victors, so Mary Magdalen could have been the true prime apostle, whereas Peter and the rest got jealous and banished her, then accused her of being a whore in order to discredit her. This is a contemporary interpretation. But interesting enough, Mary Magdalen is not celebrated on the same feast day as the Woman caught in adultery. So, who started this messy theory?

But this makes fuel for another thread, no?

Joe

Dear Cantor Joseph,

Well, as you know, I wasn't there . . .

But I think that since the Church allows for the Mother of God to be present in iconography and in the words of some of the Fathers, it's probably a safe bet!

The Spirit was sent to the Body of Christ.

As Fr. Meyendorff of blessed memory once wrote, just as the Mother of God nourished Christ when He was on earth, so too she now nurtures the members of the Body of Christ that is the Church.

Certainly, she did that at Pentecost and throughout the ministry of the Apostles and her own ministry as well.

The deuterocanonical book on the Dormition of the Mother of God (and the Church took much from it that went into the services for this feast) depicts the Mother of God as someone who, following Pentecost, was a great miracle-worker while still on earth, loved by everyone and giving counsel that many, including non-Christians, sought of her.

St Mary Magdalene is "Equal to the Apostles."

She could do everything the Apostles could do, except with respect to the Mysteries and church leadership.

I'm almost positive she could beat the Apostles in a fishing derby though . . .

Have a good evening!

Alex

One could do a beautiful meditation on the Virgin Mother of God by using the Icon of the Feast of Pentecost. If you look at it there is the Mother of God seated in the very midst of the Apostles "Queen of the Apostolic College" and the the center of the Church...receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, Whose bride she was! How magnificent! What a poet could do with this icon!!!

In her service,
+Fr. Gregory

Bless, Father!

I've often thought that a number of Western devotions take their inspiration from such biblical/iconographic themes i.e. "Queen of Apostles" "Our Lady of the Eucharist" etc.

Interestingly enough, the more I've had an opportunity to drink the sweet waters of the Byzantine liturgical tradition, the more convinced of this I've become.

Alex