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The direct translation being "Lord have mercy", but this chant is heard in both Latin and Greek churchs.
What is the origin of this word ?
Dominvs Vobiscvm
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'Kyrie Eleison', literally means 'Lord have mercy' in Greek. I believe that it was Pope Gregory the Great,in the sixth century (?) who studied in Constantinople, and who brought it to the Latin West. The East and West were one then, and I believe that being able to hear that most intrinsic of all Christian pleas in the same language, in our respective liturgies, fifteen hundred years later is a nice remnant of that unity !  In Christ, Alice
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Welcome back Alice - wonderful to see you again
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Thanks Angela! I guess that I couldn't resist this one!  Besides, it was a pretty benign question--so hopefully in this one there will be no threat of hard liner/Orthodox fundie reactions to my response! With love in Christ, Alice
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The Kyrie pre-dates Pope Gregory the Great
Greek was used by first century Christians in Rome, not Latin.
The Gospel of Mark composed in Rome was written in Greek.
Paul's Letter to the Romans was composed in Greek.
The tombs of the first 6 Popes in Rome that are known are composed in Greek. Southern Italians would take centuries to change from Greek to Latin.
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I guess that I was wrong!  My information comes directly from one of the Roman Catholic church historians on EWTN whose name escapes me. If I am wrong, I apologize. I guess it isn't time to return yet. The former beautiful and loving spirit of this forum is being severely challenged by the curt responses of some. Kyrie Eleison! Alice
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Actually, perhaps it is I that should be apologized to by Walnut?  From the Catholic Encyclopedia: The next famous witness to its use in the West is St. Gregory I (590-604). He writes to John of Syracuse to defend the Roman Church from imitating Constantinople by the use of this form, and is at pains to point out the difference between its use at Rome and in the East: "We neither said nor say Kyrie Eleison as it is said by the Greeks. Among the Greeks all say it together, with us it is said by the clerks and answered by the people, and we say Christe Eleison as many times, which is not the case with the Greeks. Moreover in daily Masses some things usually said are left out by us; we say on Kyrie Eleison and Christe Eleison, that we may dwell longer on these words of prayer" Its introduction into the Roman Mass has been much discussed. It is certain that the liturgy at the Rome was at one time said in Greek (to the end of the second century apparently). It is tempting to look upon our Kyrie Eleison as a surviving fragment from that time. Its introduction into the Roman Mass has been much discussed. It is certain that the liturgy at the Rome was at one time said in Greek (to the end of the second century apparently). It is tempting to look upon our Kyrie Eleison as a surviving fragment from that time. Such, however, does not seem to be the case. Rather the form was borrowed from the East and introduced into the Latin Mass later. Alice
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Your last quote supports what I said verbatim up to the bold print. If you find me curt, mea culpa. Guess St. John the Baptist calling people a brood of vipers wouldnt be invited to your house.
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True diversity is a diversity of styles and tones. Gentile effeminate tones should not be the only style permitted. The Savior himself referred to the Syro-Phoenician woman as a dog to make a sharp point in a parable. Modern secular modalities should not have a monopoly as the only valid mode of speech, sometimes sharpness is needed for clarity.
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Originally posted by Walnut40:
Your last quote supports what I said verbatim up to the bold print. If you find me curt, mea culpa. Guess St. John the Baptist calling people a brood of vipers wouldnt be invited to your house. :p :p Alice
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Alice, You misjudge me. My post is pro-Greek. Greek was earlier than Latin was my point. I love Eikona. I listen to www.receive.org [ receive.org] I am an Orthodox-phile. My thoughts are a paraphrase of Martin Luther's "Letter on the Freedom of A Christian?" How ecumenical is that? Christos Anesti
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I would recommend to those interested in a history of our Liturgy to read Fr. Joseph Jungmann's The Mass of the Roman Rite (if there are more recent works which supercede this please let me know). A solid and long piece of scholarship that should frankly answer any question on the origins and development of the Mass to the satisfaction of your average layman. IIRC (I don't have a copy on me right now) there was a litany of some sort during the early Liturgies, but that was dropped for the current practice a little later. Of course, Adrian Fortescue's article [ newadvent.org] that Alice cited puts this into somewhat greater detail. I particularly like the little prayer "Conditor Kyrie onmium ymas creaturarum eleyson". Syncretism!!!  I will go try to hunt down a copy and give an answer to this question (and hope I'm not dead wrong).
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ALICE ***HUGS!**** Pani Rose
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Posted by Walnut: "True diversity is a diversity of styles and tones. Gentile effeminate tones should not be the only style permitted. The Savior himself referred to the Syro-Phoenician woman as a dog to make a sharp point in a parable. Modern secular modalities should not have a monopoly as the only valid mode of speech, sometimes sharpness is needed for clarity." Dear Walnut, I am puzzled by your line of reasoning. No where that I'm familiar with does it say that diversity of tones is an excuse for less than respectful speech that conveys charity. The demands of charity in speech are not a modern secular modality. They are the discipline of the Love that the Savior enjoined upon us all as His Love applies to our speech with others. It takes a strong person to discipline himself or herself so that he or she can make his or her point without abuse. I am not sure with what authority you imply that John the Baptist would speak today in the manner that you have with Alice or that she would not welcome the Precursor into her home. Nor do I understand how Christ's words to the syro-phoenician woman are pertinent to what you have said or how you have said it to Alice. I trust that you do not find what I have said or the direct manner in which I have said it to be effeminate. It is sharp to be sure. I trust equally that you understand that I say it with the greatest degree of charity toward you and for Alice. Charity in speech has been a hall mark of this forum. It has nothing to do with effemimacy or effeminate tones. It is a virtue, a power or a strength, gained through practice with the working of the Spirit. Care in forming expression to make clear a point and choosing a manner of expressing it which reflect respect and care for the other to whom one speaks are ways of expressing charity in speech. Making and verbalizing assumptions about people like our sister Alice without any data to support them, in my opinion are not. It is unseemly to insinuate that to be manly one is free to choose to do as you have done, it seems to me. Good manners are a kind of support for Charity among us, don't you think? They are a sign of strength not effeminacy though effeminate people certainly show strength by using them too, in my experience. The Spirit works where and with whom He chooses. That includes the effeminate among us. Maybe I misunderstood you. Thanks for hearing me out. Steve
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Dear Alice,
In the course of my life (which no doubt many people would say has gone on longer than it should!) I've never received an apology from a walnut. Then again, I've never offered an apology to a walnut. However, I do have an outstanding recipe for chocolate walnut torte - the results are utterly delicious - and I'll be happy to share the recipe with you. You may then eat some of the torte and contemplate the sweetening effect upon the walnut(s) that comes with the chocolate and other ingredients. However, this is definitely not for use during fasting periods.
Incognitus
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