www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News The latest from Cardinal Walter Kasper

VATICAN, Mar 14, 02 (CWNews.com) - Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the
Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, offered a hard reaction to the
decision by the Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow to suspend its relations
with Rome, in an article in the Italian Jesuit magazine Civilta Cattolica in
its March 16 edition. While reproaching the Russian Orthodox leadership for
reacting "ideologically," he also asks Catholics to be patient because, he
says, the current Orthodox position cannot last.

After the elevation of the four Russian apostolic administrations to
dioceses last month, the Moscow Patriarchate announced the suspension of
official relations with the Holy See as well as the visit of Cardinal Kasper
which had been planned for the end of the same month. According to the
Orthodox leaders, the Vatican's decision was a provocation and evidence of
proselytism by Catholics.

"It became clear that behind the debate on the principle of canonical
territory and proselytism hide arguments of a substantially ideological
nature," Cardinal Kasper says in his article. Indeed, he says, the Russian
Orthodox Church "defends not only a reality which no longer exists, but also
a relationship between the Church and the people which is problematic on the
theological level." Moreover, he criticizes an "ecclesiological heresy"
consisting in "not recognizing in the Catholic Church her missionary
dimension in the name of a concept of proselytism unduly amplified in its
significance."

He adds that the reaction of the Russian Orthodox Church can be explained by
the fact that it "feels its own pastoral and evangelical weaknesses, and
thus fears a Catholic presence that is primarily more effective at the
pastoral level, although fewer in numbers." He also says, "Certain Catholics
of course are sometimes too zealous, but one also finds these kinds of
people in the Orthodox Church as in all the other churches."

After a long period of Communist oppression, adds the cardinal in the
article, "the Russian Orthodox Church finds itself face to face with the
pluralist modern world. It is understood that it is still searching for its
place," but " that requires patience on our part." While recognizing a
certain "coherence" in the Orthodox position, he says however that it does
not allow them "to face the future."

"They would do much better to take up the dialogue with the Catholic Church
and leave the impasse in which they find themselves. The Catholic Church is
ready with this dialogue and is prepared to collaborate," he concludes,
calling for "a little goodwill."

Sounds completely condescending.

The Cardinal's statement creates a living nightmare for Orthodox ecumenists.

Whether he knows it or not, he is backing those of us who are truly sincere about re-union into a corner: Does he expect us to throw our support to Rome and betray our Russian brethren?

In this case, Rome has declared war on Orthodoxy by declaring war on Moscow. And Gregory is correct: the Cardinal's attitude is one of arrogance;it is demeaning; and predicated on Roman/Vatican chauvinism and an undisguised contempt for Russian Orthodoxy, and Orthodoxy in general.

Now the anti-ecumenical Orthodox have even more reason to mock us. I can hear it now; "I told you so," will be the refrain Orthodox ecumenists will have to endure in the future.

Well...."The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Now we must circle the wagons around Moscow and come to the aid of our sister Church.

What other choice do we have?

Kyrie eleison!

ER

I won't say "I told you so", but I did.

In another thread, which was deleted, I stated my case on the relentless assualt on Orthodoxy by the Latins throughout the centuries.

And I said, today nothing has changed, it just appears more "civilized".

Make no mistake - the enemies of Orthodoxy will settle for nothing less than it's absorption or it's complete capitulation. And they will APPEAR one day to succeed - except that there will always be a remnant of "fanatics" who will be the true remant of the Church and a great scandal to all.

OrthodoxyOrDeath,

Chill out!

We are all Christians here and we don't need this kinda of assaults! This going back and forth will NEVER resolve anything.

Sometimes I think the Protestants have something we Catholics/Orthodox seem to forget. That is that the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS JESUS! The Church comes second!

It seems to me you are also a cradle Orthodox and, like me, you might also come from a priestly family.

You are right---I should have known better. There are absolutely no excuses, for me.


Xrisi aygi

Golden Dawn

The Light shall come from the East, and we shall be a great people once again.

ER

[Moreover, he criticizes an "ecclesiological heresy" consisting in "not recognizing in the Catholic Church her missionary dimension in the name of a concept of proselytism unduly amplified in its significance."]

To me, this says it all. What happened to the 'We only want to have the freedom and ability to take care of our own'.
So, if the ROC doesn't open the gate to Russia and bow down as the RC proseltyzers march in it's 'ecclesiological heresy'? Give me a break!
To be honest, at first I supported a visit of the Pope to Russia. But the propaganda and presssure that has been coming out of the Vatican lately has changed my mind.
It shows the true arrogance of the RCC towards Orthodoxy. It shows the arrogance of people who can't stand the fact that some one has told them 'no' which they seem to think they are above.
I would have more respect for the RCC if the Pope accepted the 'no' response, at least for the time being. Instead, he seems to have adopted an obsessive compulsive attitiude towards this.
Perhaps it is time for him to retire. If he does, then maybe he can visit Russia as a retired RC Bishop.

Sorry to vent but I've read some pretty disqusting stuff coming out of the Vatican the last few weeks.

Bob

OrthodoxyorDeath:

As I have pointed out to others here, not to offend, but you need to fix your grammar a bit:

it's = "it is"
its = possesive form.

Example: It's home. = it is home.
Its home = the home of it.

The confusion arises becuase with a noun, 's = possesive. But with the pronoun it, possesive is not it's but rather "its".

So you should have wrote: its absorption.

In Christ,

anastasios

"this orthodox possition cannot last"
- I'm sure about that.

This possition is not shared by all the Orthodox Churches, despite the fact that most of these churches disagree with the arrival of new religious groups to Orthodox nations (as well as the RC fights the infiltration of protestants in catholic nations).
Moscow has a conflict with the Romanian Patriarchate because of the same reasons (the BOR established new dioceses in Moldova and parishes for Romanians in Russia).
I agree with Cardinal Kasper: the predominant faction of the ROC doesn't understand that the world has changed and that religious freedom is a reality in the modern world, but Rome and the Russian catholics should try to stop proselitism and actions that are agresive.

Cardinal Kasper's comments are very condescending and unacceptable. Kasper does, however, raise some valid points worthy of discussion. I have had the privilege to communicate with a few Russian Orthodox priests and laymen living in Russia who speak openly of an interest in becoming Byzantine Catholic. This interest is not primarily concerned with theological issues. Among the Orthodox in Russia there are large numbers of people who see the Orthodox Church as having collaborated with the communists and the Polish pope as one of those who stood up them and defeated them. It's a matter of respect and trust. Add into this that the Moscow Patriarchate is behaving as if it is still the state protected Church of the czars (and, to an extent, the communists). They are at a loss to know how to behave in a religiously pluralistic society (modernism is something that Orthodoxy has yet to deal with).

This does not, of course, necessarily mean that the MP should turn to Rome to learn how to operate in a religiously pluralistic society. In Ukraine in the early 1990's the RCC definitely tried to proselytize both Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox by positioning itself as the Church which doesn't fight over buildings. We who are in full communion with Rome often distrust her motives. Why is Rome surprised that the MP doesn't trust her? [Although, to its discredit, the MP keeps claiming that there is still violence in Ukraine over church buildings while the local Orthodox and Greek Catholic clergy deny it and the MP cannot provide even one example less than five years old. This does not help build the MP's credibility on the world stage or among the Russian peoples.]

The MP is in a tough place. Its coolness towards Rome is very understandable and the right thing to do.

But what can and should the MP be doing to address the problems it faces? [Let's not forget that the issues with the RCC, while major, are nowhere near as problematic as that of the problem Orthodoxy faces in dealing with the well funded American Protestant groups which are challenging Orthodoxy much more than the RCC.]

What can the rest of Orthodoxy do to assist the MP? Surely the short-term effect will be a chilling of any ecumenical dialogue (which is pretty much already on hold after the Emmitsburg fiasco in the summer of 2000). But are there any concrete steps that the MP can take?

Greetings all,

I think I might need to ride the fence on this one. While I don't necessarily appreciate Cardinal Kasper's tone, I do think that Orthodoxy needs to come to terms with the contemporary pluralist world. I've never really bought into the whole "Third Rome" idea.

I think the (difficult) situation of Orthodoxy in America with its several jurisdictions is illustrative. The situation in Russia is another example of the same trend. There are several jurisdictions, several languages and several liturgies, both in Orthodoxy and Catholicism, right here in Dallas Fort Worth. This has never happened before in history, and I think there is hope for reconciliation in these close quarters.

We Orthodox will, however, have to come to terms with a new world. There's no emperor to call councils, there's no Czar and we've got various churches and bishops living in the same places. We need to figure some things out. I suspect that as others have noted on this forum, it will happen from the bottom up as the reality of a smaller world become so significant that they cannot be ignored and we, of necessity in a secular world, begin to cooperate with each other.

Dona nobis pacem.

David Lewis

One would be incorrect in believing that there is a significant grass-roots movement among the Russians that is pro-Byzantine Catholic.

The truth is, according to an independent religious and human rights organization in London, a full 62% of ethnic Russians identify as Russian Orthodox Christians.

ER

Ephraim is correct. I think that the interest among Orthodox in Russia in becoming Byzantine
Catholic is real and significant but still held by only a minority. Even a tiny minority, however, would cause the MP to worry. I think that the greater issue here is that the leadership of the MP has not yet won the loyalty of the Orthodox laity after the communist era.

The 62% figure of Russians identifying themselves as Orthodox is very interesting. I had seen a higher figure quoted in another study published on the EWTN news site. That story also indicated that, while the vast majority of Russians identify themselves as Orthodox, only 1% of this group reported that they attended church on a regular basis. We must not forget that atheism was the state religion and the average Russian simply has no real experience of church and that both the questions and eventual solutions of the issues the MP faces are complex.

The majority of Orthdoox obviously do not live in North America.

Certainly the jurisdictional situation in America is unique and certainly is not indicative of the situation of the majority of the Orthodox Churches in the mother countries, where jurisdictional "overlapping" is the exception and not the rule. Even jurisdictional conflicts are blown far out of proportion relative to their affects on the average Orthodox parish and parishioner.

The Orthodox in Europe are a bit disgusted with being compared to Orthodoxy in America and who can blame them?

The majority of us (Orthodox) are still--by and far---cradle Orthodox and we certainly have a different perspective on Orthodox history (which is our personal history vis a vis our families), issues of family and faith, and destiny---the Orthodox ethnos, ethos, and the eschaton.

Here many of us will disagree with our convert friends, neighbors, and fellow parishioners.

We hope you are understanding of our duty to protect our past so that we might insure our future and the wellbeing of future generations.

Certainly, attacks from the
West can assist us in a great way to re-instill within our young strong nationalistic and ethnic loyalties and encourage the young to link one's national identity and ethnicity with Holy Orthodoxy.

But Moose is correct in stating that the ecumenical movement between the Orthodox and Catholics is moribund.

Those of us who were idealists must face reality and concentrate on those issues that assure the survival of our Holy Faith.

ER

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

Moose,

I hope you do not expect Orthodox Christians to accept EWTN as an unbiased and non-tendentious source of statistics.

These are the same people who would have had thousands of Greeks in Hellas converting to Catholicism post the papal visit!

Not to be tit-for-tat on this issue, but the statistics for Catholic Ukraine are also not very positive since both atheism and evangelicalism have made strong inroads into Ukraine, Catholic and Orthodox.

Rome has enough "missionary work" to do among her own. Leave the Russians to the Orthodox.


ER