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Ephraim Reynolds,

I apologize for being insensitive to historical issues that I cannot understand, and to their real and personal implications for the people (and their ancestors) who have graciously accepted me into the Body of Christ. I admit that I am hopelessly stuck in my American biases, and I am genuinely grateful for the hospitality shown to me in my new Orthodox home.

That being said, I must also say that when I was recieved into Holy Orthodoxy I understood my church to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church we speak of in the creed. As such, how far can the connection between Orthodoxy and ethnicity go? Are we catholic or aren't we? The Body of Christ must be bigger than one ethnicity or another. Help me to understand how this works. Again, I apologize for my ignorance and my clumsiness. I don't think my ideas are wholly off the mark, though, and they're not just the ideas of Converts either. I think Schmemman and his ilk are of this mind as well.

What's the answer?


David Lewis

Moribund? I don't think so. The ecumenical dialogue is entering a hibernation phase, I think, but not approaching death. Rome needs to learn to respect the East (starting with those of us who are already in communion with her). Orthodoxy needs to learn how to face the modern world. The MP probably needs a generation to understand that she is not the state Church anymore and that she has a responsibility to actually proclaim the Good News rather than wait for people to come to her. Come to think of it, that is exactly also what we Byzantine Christians in America - Catholic and Orthodox - need to do since we have not yet begun to evangelize America.

"For the holy Churches of God for the union of all, let us pray to the Lord."
"Lord, have mercy."

Ephraim,

I do not accept EWTN as unbiased but I do think that general conclusions can be drawn from that report. America is one of the most religious countries on earth with very high percentages of our people attending worship services on a regular basis (40-50%) when compared to other nations. England was something on the order of less than 10% even though the majority of people are technically members of the Church of England. A 1% practicing figure for Russia with a 60% to 80% self-identified as R.O. figure should not be surprising.

You are correct about Ukraine. The statistics I've seen are similar to those of Russia. Even in Western Ukraine where Byzantine Catholics are the most numerous only a small percentage of Ukrainians actually worship regularly.

David does raise an excellent issue. Just how does Orthodoxy (and Byzantine Catholicism, for that matter) go about divorcing Christianity from ethnicity in America? The ethnicity factor does turn away people who come looking for Christ and find holupki, kibbi or baklava as a major "sacramental".

Moose

>>>Certainly, attacks from the
West can assist us in a great way to re-instill within our young strong nationalistic and ethnic loyalties and encourage the young to link one's national identity and ethnicity with Holy Orthodoxy<<<

Maybe I'm just thinking like a silly Westerner, but I have never understood the close link some Orthodox make with their ethnicity, as if an Orthodox Christian of British heritage is less Orthodox then one of Russian heritage. As a matter of fact, I read in my Bible just this morning that St.Paul states there is now neither jew nor Greek, slave or free. Why should one's ethnicity(of which you have no control over anyway) be the measuring stick of true Orthodox Christians?

Columcille

Brother David,

There is no need for you to apologize.

There is room in Orthodoxy for a variety of ways of expressing one's commitment to the Triune Lover of Mankind and to the Holy Faith we love and would die for. (As Sam notes, we are "fanatics.")

My way---as an ethnic Orthodox---of relating to the faith should be different from your way---which is fresh and unique and full of hope and optimism. But my way is also legitimate, if somewhat different from those whom God has gifted with the pure vision of converts.

You have much to teach us. But the symmetry of Orthodox fraternity and love works both ways.

In the past, some converts to Orthodoxy labeled those of us who are Greeks---"n-----s"---and we had some choice epithets for them.

Thank God, those evil days have been consumed by Satan and I think 'ol sparky has an acute case of indigestion! Greeks are hard to digest!

God and Orthodoxy allows us to be our own and unique selves, and it is true that one certainly does not need to be a member of a particular ethnic group to live the Holy Faith.

On the other hand, being a member of a particular ethnic group that is rooted in Orthodox history and culture shouldn't be an occasion for apologies or rationalizations.

All of us are called to live the Faith in unique and special ways.

Regards,

ER

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

[ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Ephraim Reynolds ]

While it would be my suggestion to the Vatican to pull back on it's roll in Russia. Let me just say this, because I believe it is valid and important. I'm not sure what of every roll the Roman Catholic Church is trying to play in Russia, but I do know this concerning Roman Catholic concept of "missonary" at least in our modern day. I have noticed that Protestants and Catholics in todays world understand "missonary" not in totaly the same way, and infact often they seem to practice it in different ways. Here's how (at least how I see it): Protestants view missionary work as a direct verbal involvment in the spread of the good news - telling people about Jesus and the salvation in Him. Catholics on the other hand, tend more towards a much broader approach, and that approach is often materialized in the form of education, hospitilization, agriculture, and in areas of "third world" nations - the use of the Vatican to suggest means of improving human rights situations and the stabilizations of government.

At least that's how I see it.

Now if America is an example of missionary work to the un-churched of non-catholics. Then as far as schools go, the Russians have little to fear, because spreading Catholic theology and adherence is on the bottom of the list.

Oh! I should have pointed out that, I don't what missonary means to the contemporary Orthodox. Or to which it leans closer to in practice of it's missonary work - the Catholic or the Protestant?

Some how I find this hard to believe. America is perhaps the most or one of the most Church active place in the world on Sunday. But I think the Sears Tower encompasses more of the American identity then we give it credit for. By contrast, although homosexual marriage is legal in Italy I believe, I think St Peters Basilica encompasses more of the Italian indentity then we would give it credit for.

["I do not accept EWTN as unbiased but I do think that general conclusions can be drawn from that report. America is one of the most religious countries on earth."
Moose}

And also the most secular.

OrthoMan

While the Cardinal was quite insensitive in many of his remarks, Moose is right.

From what I have read, the RCC is trying to administer to its own flock in Russia - Roman Catholics who were deported by Stalin, or their ancestors who were depoted by Stalin. Is Rome NOT supposed to shepherd its own flock?

As for another assault on the Orthodox, well, there's been plenty of assaults by both Orthodox and Catholics on EACH OTHER down through the centuries. I could point out how Holy Orthodox Russia under the Czar sought to wipe out Polish identity and the Catholic church in partitioned Poland during the 19th and early 20th centuries.
That's one big reason my great grandfather stowed away on a boat and fled Poland for Western Pennsylvania.

Orthodoxy in Russia faces a MUCH BIGGER threat from well backed and well-financed Pentacostal, Evangelical and fundementalist Amercian Protestant churches than ANYTHING Rome can do.
For years, many in these groups have seen Catholics as 'ripe for the pickin". They see Russians the same way. I have seen as much on their supposedly 'Christian" television stations.
Not on EWTN, however.

Open your eyes and see where the real threat lies - fundamentalist Protestantism, which is the only branch of Protestantism that may survive the next 100 years, and secular Western culture that worships sin and idle wealth.

It is true that America is one of the most religious countries on earth when compared to other countries. This, in itself, does not make America a religious nation. Even though we are becoming more secular each year we are still more religious than most other nations.

Moose,

Not to attack you I just don't see how? Compared to who the Brits and Canadians... then ya I suppose. But in comparisson to Malta or Baharian? Out of Sao Palo Brazil the mayor of that rather enormous city wants to out-law women wearing mini-skirts, sleevless shirts, and any other dress wear considered provacative, during period of Lent. He wants to maintain the "catholic" integrity of the city. He suggests this be policed by issueing out fines for inappropriate dress (of course during Lent alone). If it is worth noteing I don't no - but the Brazilian Bishops have come out against this plan of the mayors - saying they do not support it and are not concerned with people dress but their souls.

But then we've just had a mayor - of evangilical background - out-law & ban Satan from her small florida town. So I don't know perhaps your right.