www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Orthodox who become Catholics

The topic about dissaflected Roman Catholics who become Orthodox has been commented and mentioned many times in this board, as well as the reasons which lead them to convert (liturgical abuse, for example) but I was a little bit curious abourt your opinions about the case when an Orthodox Christian decide to become Roman Catholic.

Do you know about any person with this experience?

it is very probable that this kind of conversions are not so frequent (not like the inverse case) unless it has to do with familly matters (when someone marries a catholic) or when they live in a place where there are no Orthodox parishes.

But there've been some different kind of conversions in Russia, of some Orthodox Christians who embrace Roman Catholicism. In this case, most of them are not very much educated in the Orthodox Church, and young people decide to join the Roman Church because they find the Divine Liturgy boring and redundant, and the modern Roman mass vibrant and very moving. There also a huge atraction to the charismatic figure of John Paul II, who causes fascination (i've got these reasons from a recent conversation with an Argentinian "charismatic catholic" missionary who works in the missions of Russia)

But in the West, the phenomenon of changing religion is also related to people who sometimes seek an "easier" religion, a religion which is compatible with the modern way of life and the secular world. This would be the case of many Orthodox and Catholics who embrace Protestantism. It is also very interesting to me that many catholics from the USA hold a very wrapped view of Orthodoxy, thinking that Orthodoxy is "more liberal" than Catholicism. (There's also a small minority of cases when people look for the possibility if a second marriage and contraception, which Catholicism denies), while in my culture, and in other countries, we have the opposite view and we see Catholicism as very liberal and Orthodoxy as much more conservative than Catholicism in many things (worship, morals, faith), even if we leave the ethnic issue aside.

I hope my post isn't confusing, but i was curious

I think some Catholics are attracted to Orthodoxy due to its less stringent teachings on things like divorce, contraception, etc. This to me would classify as being "less moral" than the Catholic stance, although I do think that the Orthodox Churches are more "conservative" when it comes to liturgy.

Also, since most (but not all) Eastern Catholic Churches sprang from Eastern/Oriental Orthodox to come into communion with Rome, this would be a major case of Orthodox going to Catholicism.

WHY am I up this late?

ChristTeen287

Dear Remie,

The Orthodox I know, especially from Eastern Europe, who have become Catholic, do so for a number of reasons that they have shared with me.

Some have said they didn't like the close church-state relations between the Orthodox Church and the governments. They were disaffected by the backgrounds of some of their bishops and felt the Church was too much of an arm of the state, before and now.

Others, especially in my family, said they became Catholic because of Pope John Paul II.

I don't know why, but this church leader seems to have had quite the impact on some .

Others have said they think of Roman Catholicism (as opposed to Eastern Catholicism) as a new "thing" from the West that they thought they would try out.

Masses are shorter, legs don't hurt from too many prostrations, less smothering incense etc. It's all "way more cool."

So if it's Western, they like it.

Alex

Well that's their loss! When I become Pope I'm going to reinstitute all the ancient Western forms of worship: Roman, Celtic, Visigothic, etc....plus mix it with Eastern liturgies and make them all 3 hours long!! Who cares about liturgical organic development?!

ChristTeen287

CT,

I don't believe if you talked to a lot of Orthodox converts, that they would say they became Orthodox Christians because it was LESS stringent If anything, Orthodoxy is more strict in some ways but also has a very particular freedom (as opposed to "license") especially as compared to the the juridical holdovers in the Roman Cath Church. It is often a strange dichotomy. Wasn't it Chesterton who wrote of the Glories of Orthodoxy?

Peace,
Brian

I know some Orthodox who became Catholic for strictly doctrinal reasons. However, the majority of Orthodox I know who became Catholic did so due to intermarriage. As a matter of fact most Catholic-Orthodox marriages and families that I know of end up raising their children in the Catholic Church. Greater accessibity to Catholic parishes could be a determining factor.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

Interesting you should say that about the doctrine.

I knew an Orthodox who became Catholic over Purgatory.

I tried to stop him, but he wouldn't listen . . .

Alex

I know an Orthodox lady who recently became a Roman Catholic quite well: she's my mom. She told me that she found herself spiritually much more home in the Roman Catholic Church than in the Russian Orthodox Church she was raised in. My dad was an old school Irish Catholic, but he never, ever encouraged my mother to become a Roman Catholic. In fact, he encouraged my brother and me to learn about Orthodoxy even though we were raised Roman Catholics. In the end, I drifted east with the Byzanties and my mom drifted west with the Romans. I'm with something Anthony Dragani wrote on the message boards before, "in heaven, there is no schism." And all I can say is thank God for that!

That's a fair point: when I was a kid, some of my cousins were raised Orthodox. (I noticed in my own family unit that when Orthodox married Catholics, the kids usually ended up Catholic. But when Orthodox married Protestants, the kids ended up Orthodox.)

Several of my cousins went to Catholic school (I did not), and I recall there being a lot of confusion about one of my Orthodox cousins in particular. The school simply could not comprehend why he said he didn't need to be Confirmed. Ah, well. Apparently, the nuns understood about Catholics and Protestants, but they didn't really understand about the Orthodox. Fortunately, the chancery understood all that. But it took a few weeks and a visit from my uncle before they straightened it out.

I also recall taking a CCD class with a kid who belonged to an Eastern Catholic church. His church was really small and he had a lot of theological questions that were getting hard to answer, so his parents signed him up for CCD. (I don't remember exactly which church he belonged to. His parents were from Greece.) I remember a very mean CCD teacher screaching at him that he was somehow offending God by Crossing himself "the wrong way." When I tried to be helpful and explain to her that was how my baba did it, man did she ever get angry. Shudder. I hope CCD is better than when I was a kid. ;-)

From what I've understood here, it is almost always the common pattern that they become Roman Catholics, choosing the western rite of the western Church, and they no longer follow the Eastern Rite (and because they feel atracted to the style of western modern worship).

Is it that most of the time, they do not know that there's an eastern Church within the Catholic Church, or that they canonicaly would belong to that Church? Is this law, that states that if an Orthodox ever joins the Catholic Church he/she becomes a member of the Eastern Rite, truly enforced? I don'0t think so.-

In the ideal world, Orthodox (or Eastern Catholics) who become Western Catholics would do so because they feel attracted to the glories and beauty of Western Catholicism. The last thing the Latin Church needs are people converting into it simply because they like the "modern form of worship" that many Latin parishes offer.

ChristTeen287

"The last thing the Latin Church needs are people converting into it simply because they like the "modern form of worship" that many Latin parishes offer."

Why not? I'll bet you would say different if they were going to become Catholic because of the Tridentine Mass. And the liturgy offered in the majority of Catholic Churches throughout the world is just as licit, beautiful and spiritual. Your bias is showing. Face it, modern Catholicism is just a valid an expression of the faith as the Catholicism of the 50's or any other era. You haven't experienced any of it first hand, so you need to be careful about what you say. If you want to express your opinion, then please label it as your opinion and nothing more.
anamchristi

AnamChristi:

He only expressed his opinion, and I don't think he meant to offend, I also believe that people express legitimate grievances when they are critical about certain problems that have arised in the Church (both Orthodox and Catholic)

Christteen:

Well, I think that the aspect of western modern worship of the RCC that atracts people (like those Orthodox who join the Roman Church because of this)is its inclusiveness. One of the positive sides of the post-Vatican II worship in the Roman Church is that it is inclusive and participatory, so that people from different religious backgrounds and ethnic groups, or age groups can adapt it and transform it.

Your comment is not bad I think, I also share a similar preocupation. I think it is not right when people look for an "easier religion", like thses persons who become Orthodox because they're more willing to accept contraception and divorce, or those who join the RC because the Mass is shorter or amusing, or because ppl don't have to fast as in the Orthodox Church.

About the liturgical issue, it is probable that a traditional Orthodox christian (taking away his probable prejuidces toward the Latin Church) would find the Tridentine Mass as very close to his own liturgy in many things, but "too Latin." (and a Tridentinist would sure find a home in the traditional Eastern Liturgy too if he wants).

But the cases that were described here, of young Russians, for example, who already find their own liturgy boring and redundant, would sure find a Tridentine Liturgy even more disturbing and totally alien to their identity.

I wonder if there's a good bibliography about this, I mean, it seems that there's a crisis of identity everywhere.

I believe for immigrants the reason for leaving Orthodoxy for Roman Catholicism often relates to a desire to be part of the american culture.
While it is true that there can be no simple answer as to why some Eastern Orthodox decide to become Roman Catholic, I can give an example from my wife's family. Her grandparents were Greek Catholics who immigrated to western Pennsylvania from eastern Slovakia. The Roman Catholic Church had a large slavic parish in their town, and they also associated the RCs with becoming Anericanized. They wanted both the americanization and the ties to the people back home. This they were unable to find among the Orthodox, who were still following the old calendar, discouraging the use of Emglish, relying on clergy from the old country, and lacking in americanized members. Even though the RCs were using Latin at the time, their parishes were part of a greater network of parishes that were already part of mainstream America. The need to adopt the prevailing culture was more important than the need to retain old ways. One can make all sorts of judgments pro and con about that, but it remains at the heart of many Orthodox who left for the Roman church when they came to America- that, and the streamlined service, the generally more compassionate atmosphere, etc. as have been mentioned or alluded to by others already. I guess they were applying the slogan "Think globally, live locally", though it had not been verbalized that way at that time.

I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear. When I say "modern form of worship" I do not mean a Novus Ordo as celebrated by the rubrics; I had more in mind an N.O. filled with liturgical abuses. I wouldn't really call a N.O. that went by the rubrics a "modern form of worship."

I never said or implied that "modern Catholicism" wasn't as valid as Tridentine Catholicism. I have been to Novus Ordos, so I have experienced it first hand, although not to any extent to really matter.

I thought everyone here was expressing their opinion? Do I have to put up flashing red lights every time I say my opinion?

ChristTeen287