www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Orthodox who become Catholics

One needs to study why many Orthodox in the Middle East turned Roman Catholic as well as Greek Catholic. My personal family history that is divided in all three camps. Originally all the Arabs of my family were baptized Orthodox but many were recruited by Franciscans earlier this past century. My father(memory eternal) told me that he was enticed by the Roman Catholics charitable givings to which he referred to as "boogij" (baggage)and to attend their church.

The Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem has not been mindful of its large Arab Orthodox flock. There are many in my community that continually make fun of the Orthodox Church and its clergy. It is said that the church and her clergy are unlearned, take bribes, non-holy, and does not have the wealth that Rome possesses. Many of these converts to Catholicism pride themselves on having an educated clergy, celibacy, organization, and being part of a church that is much bigger than the Orthodox. I am confident that these converts came to catholicism not due to doctrinally & theological studies.

This past century Rome saw an opportunity to bring the Arab Orthodox under her wings since the Orthodox Patriarchate was negligent and greek self-centered. I cannot place all the blame on Rome for these conversions even though it has interfered in another's jurisdiction. Most of it I attribute to the Greek hierarchy that is found in the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre. The heresy of phyletism. One solution is to follow the steps of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in Syria and force the Brotherhood out and have the Arabs take their rightful place within the Orthodox Patriarchate's hierarchy.

If anyone is interested in purchasing the book "A Historical Glance at The Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre" by Saint Raphael Hawaweeny please let me know. This can partially explain why Orthodox became Catholics.

Last night I visited my beloeved mother who professes to be Melkite. She asked me to perform the sign of the Cross. She told me that I did it wrong and that we Orthodox are wrong. LOL. I asked her to perform the same thing and she did it the Roman Catholic way. LOL
Talk about confusion!

Fascinating, Rum!

I'm in a goofy mood, so I'll ask you a silly off-topic question about your board name. Is a Rum Orthodox an Orthodox who drinks rum?

An elderly lady in Houma, Louisiana, once told me she was an E-Whiskey-palian.

I guess I'd have to say I'm a Bailey's Irish Cream Catholic.

ZT

Hello Zoe,
This Rumi used to drink rum. I only do so when I may be on vacation like in Jamaica. Ya man!

I can see you & my Irish wife with the label "Bailey's Irish Cream Catholic". But I think I would still out-drink you. But again I'm not a big drinker. This is the drinking difference between you Catholics & Orthodox. LOL

I refused in the last few years to celebrate St. Patrick's Day with the alcohol drinking. But my wife tells me that the Irish Catholics have been giving a dispensation! LOL

One thing I learned from my interaction with Irish Catholics is to not discuss religion with them under the influence of alcohol. They see themselves as appointed by the Pope to bring me into the Catholic fold! LOL

anam, that is a great point. The Tridentine Mass is no magic panacea. The 20-minute mumbled Low Masses aren't exactly the pinnacle of corporate, communal worship by a long shot.

Most of the Orthodox I know of who became either Greek Catholic or Roman did so because of problems with lack of direction and unity between Orthodox jurisdictions or because of moral ambiguity on such issues as contraception.

A priest friend of mine who was formerly an Antiochian Orthodox priest read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (the "new" Catechism) with his wife and realized there was nothing substantial he disagreed with, so he asked to be received into communion with the Catholic Church.

Was he received as a Roman priest or as a Melkite priest? Just curious. :p

As an Orthodox convert in the United States, I think the things that could potentially motivate me to become Catholic are

1. This is Catholic Country. Maybe not officially, or according to canon law, but belonging to a minority movement in a country with 50 million catholics can feel a little bit like spinning your wheels.

2. I have a lot of friends who are Catholic and it hurts to be out of communion with them.

3. Pope John Paul II: He's great, and seems to be doing much more towards Christian Unity than Orthodox Hierarchs.

Ultimately these reasons are all pragmatic in nature. Could they be enough to motivate a switch? I don't know. In the absence of principled reasons to choose one over the other, and in the absence of any reason to justify the schism, what reasons could there be to choose one over the other than pragmatic ones?

At the end of the day, though, I haven't got any good reason to leave my people. There are pros and cons, and when I'm particularly sinful I focus on the cons. I imagine, however, that it would take something pretty traumatic to motivate a switch.

Just some thoughts.

Blessed Epiphany,

David

Dear ChristTeen,

I sometimes feel I should as well!

And there have been some here that have actually been angry with me. Me! Little innocent Alex, would you believe!

I think the two of us just aren't all that understand and appreciated for the truly wonderful people we are. And people are jealous of our modesty and humility . . .

God bless, Servant of Christ!

Alex

Down here in the South, the few Orthodox I know have few choices of where to attend church.
We've had some attend our Byzantine Catholic church. One Orthodox is dating a Catholic and if they marry and have children, would probably raise them Catholic; although I've encouraged her not to lose her heritage [I'd hate to see Orthodoxy become extinct here].

Down here in the South it can even be difficult to find a Catholic church, as Christ Teen knows.
My son is looking at various universities in the state, and in Bulloch County there is only ONE
Catholic parish, but 130 Protestant congregations!

denise

Dear anamchristi:

I can see where you might get annoyed with CT the non-yet-Catholic who criticizes the Paul VI Mass.

Yet when has he come out as a Tridentine apologist?

Why is it always that people who don't like the way the Paul VI Mass is celebrated are assumed by others to be Tridentines?

I for one don't like the way that most RC Masses I have attended in various states and in India, Slovakia, and El Salvador are celebrated (I mention those three countries due to my having firsthand or secondhand [ie video or my wife] knowledge about them).

I don't think that the Tridentine Mass is the solution to all evils, however!

You came across very polemically in your last post.

Here's my reply to your reply to CT which I hope does not come accross as too polemical itself.

>>>"The last thing the Latin Church needs are people converting into it simply because they like the "modern form of worship" that many Latin parishes offer."

>>>Why not? I'll bet you would say different if they were going to become Catholic because of the Tridentine Mass. And the liturgy offered in the majority of Catholic Churches throughout the world is just as licit, beautiful and spiritual.

I don't agree. Have you ever been outside the US? I have, and Masses in other countries like India can be just as wacky. Look at photos from suburban churches in Rome of all places for funky architecture, no images, etc. I watched a video of my friend's quincenera in El Salvador and the priest didn't even where a chausable when saying Mass. My wife is Slovak and reported that the last time she was in Slovakia she was at Church on Sunday and the priest did a 25 minute Mass all spoken. I don't know where you're been! At an RC parish in Westchester County, NY, at Mass one day, the priest told us that God doesn't care if we go to Church, have sex outside of marriage, or pray, as long as we're nice to people. I went to confession there and was told that I hadn't sinned (even though my conscience said yes!!) and he gave me an ad libed absolution, and refused to absolve my wife (he told her to go buy something at a store so she would make herself feel better!). At the RC parish I visited when I first inquired into Catholicism in Raleigh, NC, the nun told us that she thought there would be female priests within 20 years.

That's some of the negativity. I have had positive experiences at RC Masses in Washington DC, Arlington, VA, Kalamazoo, MI, and Toledo, OH.

>>>Your bias is showing. Face it, modern Catholicism is just a valid an expression of the faith as the Catholicism of the 50's or any other era.

What does it mean to be a "valid expression?" 1950's Roman Catholicism was in decline and there needed to be Vatican II, but the junk that happened after that was a joke. There's no way you can tell me that the current state of liturgy and catechesis in most RC parishes in the world is good.

>>>You haven't experienced any of it first hand, so you need to be careful about what you say. If you want to express your opinion, then please label it as your opinion and nothing more.

Please share with us your experiences and opinions so that we may know why you, a self-described fallen-away Byzantine Catholic, feel so strongly that modern RCism is so great?

anastasios

Yes, Alex, if only everyone were as holy and humble as we are.

Anastasios,

Thank you for coming to my defense. Once again, the "modern form of worship" I was speaking of are the immense liturgical abuse that some people seem to love (!) and can be found in many Roman Catholic parishes, but certainly many are quite faithful to the rubrics.

I went to Mass this past Saturday night at a VERY faithful and holy Roman church. The Kyrie Eleison was chanted (in Greek, not in English), the priest's vestments were as ornate as most or perhaps all Byzantine priests, etc. (most of this is aesthetic, but isn't that part of the glory of worhsip)?

Regardless of this, I'm just not spiritually awakened by the N.O. Mass, no matter how faithfully celebrated. The only time I really got "into it" was during Eucharist reception, and I believe that's always a moving experience, regardless of the Mass.

I don't completely blame Vatican II for these problems. Certainly the ideals in mind were godly and inspirational, and I'm sure many people benefit from them; however, I do not and, for whatever reason, the liturgical changes have opened the way for immense abuse. Even the "20 minute Tridentine Mass between the priest and altar boy" were not, I believe, as frequent as the abuses nowadays. Perhaps much of this is due to society in general, however, and not due to the N.O. revisions.

If they really wanted to incorporate more "communal" worship into the Mass (which I deem necessary, the Tridentine does lack some of this) they couldv'e done so without throwing out valuable traditions. Or rather, this could have been implemented better, as this seemed to be what V2 was aiming for.

Even if the indult for the Tridentine Mass were abolished, I wouldn't go into a schismatic group because I believe fidelity to the Truth and faithfulness to the Church far outweigh the other options, even if the Mass isn't all I want it to be.

ChristTeen287

Well, I've been having these conversations with several American Roman Catholics, and I've noticed that most of them tend to think that the liturgical problem and some liberal influences, are exclusive of the USA, and that in other places this doesn't happen. What Anastasios said is true, and I have had a similar experience in my native country's Roman masses and the way they're celebrated. However I think that there are many places where this doesn't happen, but it isn't so general.

My recent conversations with charismatic catholic missionaries who work in Russia, have been very helpful to understand how diverse are the needings of people, and how some forms of worship we do not aprove, are needed by the people who live in a different situation. At a certain degree, the religious situation of modern Orthodox today, could ressemble a little bit that of catholics in the 50's. Things seem to work very well now, the Orthodox Churches in Eastern Europe and America are getting a lot of converts as catholics did in the 50's (after all, the atheist fever of the 40's was in decline), but the apparent success of catholicism at that time hid a lot of flaws, that success was quite fictitious 8notcie, I am not saying that modern success of Orthodoxy will have the same end.)

Many people would say that the Orthodox Church has not paid any atention to the proccess and developments of the Roman Church, but is not completely true. Reforms would prolly appear in some places in some years.

Recently in Greece, there was a reunion of Bishops in order to analyse the serious decline in Mass-attendance, specially among the young people. As a result of that reunion important decissions were not taken, but a group of priests and two bishops presented an experimental project for the Divine Liturgy in the vernacular (some sources informed that it had already been celebrated in two dioceses). The project only has a few "shy" changes (it's not a "new" liturgy) and these are: he use of modern Greek vernacular instead of old Greek, abreviated ektenias, abreviated prayers by priests and deacons, and some things that were proposed to make the liturgy more participatory (commented readings, for example) and some changes in the sacred music, to make it less monastic and more modern (however, nobody proposed the inclussion of musical instruments there )

In spite of what people think, the other Bishops refused to adopt those changes (though they weren't opposed to experiment probable use of vernacular, and other changes) and the reforms of the Western Church were always in the mind of those Bishops who opposed. Even HB Christodoulos (who is know for being less conservative than other Bishops)thought that changes should be applied carefully and always throught the respect of tradition. Other Bishops expressed that if changes are adopted, one would lead to another, and another, and another... and that there could be results similar to Vatican II in the Western Church.

I can tell you with certainty, that in my mother's case she chose the Roman church, specifically. It was all discussed at length with the canon lawyers and the local bishop.

I found it odd, because growing up with her Orthodoxy and its traditions made me go more and more "native" and Byzantine. (I am very much a Catholic, but I certainly appreciate the Orthodox point of view.) I can only conclude that the same spiritual path and traditions is not for everyone - I mean, look at how many churches we have in this thing called apostolic Christianity, anyway!

There was a fairly recent book entitled *What Went Wrong With Vatican II* that I found pretty interesting. And of course, I think it is fair to read the published concilar documents, as I'm sure many folks here have done.

I tend to believe there were a lot of very good ideas that came out of Vatican II, but something got lost at the grassroots level.