www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Holy light of Jerusalem

Almighty God has special mercy upon those whom He, in His infinite wisdom and love, chooses to have special mercy. It is not for us to attempt to argue with God or to expect Him to limit His mercy to suit our limited thinking.

There are cases of Muslims receiving the healing of illnesses at the Shrine of the Holy Theotokos at Tinos, to take a simple example. But what Christian would argue that this proves that Christians should become Muslims?

There is a quite enjoyable novel from the mid-twentieth century entitled Father Malachy's Miracle which I gladly recommend (it was a paperback and may be out of print - check Catholic libraries). Besides being a pleasant read, it peacefully makes the point that the wonderful works of God are not always intended to convert people.

Now may we return to a positive discussion of the Holy Light of Pascha?

Incognitus

Dear friends,

thanks very much for your answers. I fully try, and hope that I do so, to understand and respect your position.
As far as I am concerned, I would have been glad, if God all the Churches, why not all the people of completely different Faiths, who adore the Creator and beg mercy from Him every moment, would have saved as they are.


But the reality given to us is that there may not be a compromise in truth, for truth goes together with salvation.


Therefore we try as much as we can and understand, to stand firm in the truth.


Coming back to our discussion, I again have to say that:


1. We are talking about a specific miracle which happens in a Church that historically belongs not exclusively to either orthodox, not coptic, armenian or roman catholics.


2. That miracle, after the different Schisma (monophysites vs chalcedonians; eastern orthodox vs roman catholics etc) is given only to the orthodox patriarch, neither to the coptic, armenian or latin one, despite that these too tried to be the ones to receive it. The light again, even in these cases, went outside the church in the place where the orthodox patriarch was.
THAT IS WHAT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPARED TO THE OTHER CASES.


3. This all is completely different from other miracles (why not "miracles"), which happen within closed enviroments.
For example: Lourd was being seen by catholic children, was investigated by catholic authorities. That is exclusively, what i call a catholic thing.
Now, as for miracles, why not supranatural phenomenas, I have no authority to underesteemate them, neither to accept.

However, I can say that it is a bit strange that God would act through these Apparitions only in western sort of groups. It seems like He is favouring exclusively western catholics, at a time when Maria's apparition happen among eastern orthodox in a completely other fashion, without pomposity, and without confirming western doctrinal declarations.


Dear Logos. Orthodox opinions on catholics differes as much as do the catholics towards orthodox. On both sides one can find from extreme opposition to the neareness of conscience.

Dear Amado,
Thanks for the quotes. I'm familiar with them. I really don't think they show that Soufanieh tilts toward the "Latin celebration." The events of Soufanieh began with the oil exhuding from the icon and then from Myrna. It seems to me that the events of Soufanieh reflect both East and West just as the messages do. Myrna has met with several Oriental and Eastern Orthodox hierarchs and prayed in their churches with their clergy and faithful. Even Moslems have come to Soufanieh to pray. My point is again, that the events surrounding Myrna indicate a "unicity" of East and West.

Vito

I agree with others that this thread is a little silly. However, let me correct something.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. To my knowledge the only other church that has tried to receive it is the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chanceldonian). One time their bishop entered and did not get the fire. Instead there was a crack in a pillar or something. But a Catholic one has never tried. This is the story I got from an Eastern Orthodox priest anyway.

Dear Arbanon,

Well, the appartion of Our Lady of Zeitoun in Egypt occurred over a Coptic Cathedral - this was seen by even Protestants and Muslims.

Does this mean we should defer to the Oriental Orthodox?

And the Miracle of the Light of Jerusalem was occurring when the Eastern Orthodox Christians were in full communion with the West until the two Churches split, calling each other "schismatic" and "heretical" respectively.

The issue you are putting forth is, as I understand it (and you must excuse me, I am a "Uniate" and so my soul is darkened by the lack of Grace as a result of my schism from the true Church) but even with my darkened mind, I perceive that you are saying that the Light of Jerusalem only occurs with the Orthodox Patriarch present because that Patriarch belongs to the true Church and God is confirming this fact by this miracle.

The fact is that all the historic Churches have believed this.

The Roman Catholic apparitions of Mary, as at Lourdes and Fatima, have often been taken to confirm that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church, as Catholics believe (but they also have darkened minds, like mine, so what do they really know?).

I have also met Eastern Orthodox who affirm to me that the apparitions at Zeitoun, since they were over a Coptic Church, were not that of the Mother of God . . . but demonic, in fact!

Perhaps the Miracle of Light at Jerusalem only confirms that when the Church there, despite its divisions, with their historic Bishop, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, gathers before the Tomb of our Lord and glorifies the Resurrected Christ, this miracle occurs to strengthen everyone's faith in the same Christ.

The Tomb itself, as you know, also has a section that is under the Copts.

I visited both sides of the Tomb.

Frankly, I found the Coptic priest to be much more inspiring than the Greek Orthodox one on the other side.

But that could also be due to my darkened mind.

Please pray for my conversion to the true Orthodox Church of Christ, as God would have it, and not as we.

Alex

Unfortunately I have seen such opinions expressed, but only on the Internet. I have never met someone in real life who didn't think Zeitoun was anything but an authentic appearance of the Theotokos.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

If all Orthodox Christians were like you, there would be no problem!!

Cheers,

Alex

Hear, hear!

So true. And I agree with both Alex and Andrew.

Nestor

Dear Nestor,

My dear father-in-law is "Nestor."

Which St Nestor is your patron? The martyr with St Demetrius or the Chronicler?

Or another?

Alex

Dear Arbanon,

I have to agree with Alex of the 'darkened mind'. Could it be that when the Coptic or Armenian Patriarch, (I know not which one it was), manipulated the Turks, paid them or what not, to have the Jerusalem Patriarch banned from receiving the Holy Fire on Easter, that this unchristian act in itself might have made 'that' Patriarch, (whoever he was), unworthy of receiving the light?

Could it be that our God wanted to show that the Holy Fire is not to be coveted? That it must continue to go to the accepted Patriarch of Jerusalem...as it always has.

Think of the disruptions of the Church in that part of the world, if by chance our Lord was not so wise, (a silly thought), and allowed a Copt or Armenian to acquire the light. What then would have happened to the simple minded people that could only accept their faith through symbolisms and miracles such as the Holy Fire?

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia and all,


Why couldnt it be (why is it unacceptable for you) that the light is given to the orthodox patriarch EACH YEAR as a sign of True Faith?


I do agree, if someone has a sort of orange vs blue sort of religious feelings, he would then have a darkened mind.


thanks very much

I don't think it's a matter of not being able to accept it so much as thinking that it is not what the miracle signifies. we have given many reasons on this thread as to why it does not signify what you are suggesting.

Dear Arbanon,

Both orange and blue are among my favourite colours!

But I think you are wasted on such a humble forum.

With your theological views, they could really use on the Orthodox-Catholic ecumenical commissions!

Then you could spread the light to many more darkened souls!

Good day!

Alex

Dear Matt,

Actually you gave possible variants of opinions, by excluding ONLY ONE, which is as much possible (logically) as the others. Why? Because of unacceptance, surely.


Orthodox Catholic. Unfortunately, in this topic, there is no theological discussion. You are wasting time, dear friend, in turning or understanding it as such.


You have to know that Holy Fire miracle is the Greatest miracle in Christianity, in the sense of frequency and exacteness and evidence. There is no such miracle (at least that I know) among roman catholics, neither among monophysites, which could claim equality.
Its a miracle given during a Service, the mos ipmortant service during the year.


Would it happen in Rome, oh God, what publicity and pride would have been there.


Respects

Is there a reason why you say this Arbannon?