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Yes, because the Orthodox are not and never have been subject to human failings like that.

I say the true Church leader of the age must be Benny Hinn; after all he claims to raise the dead!
-Daniel

RRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!
(rending my garment).

Greater than the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the Eucharist? How do you dare compare mysteriously lit candles to our communion with Christ? If you think such signs are somehow greater, then please see Lk 11:29, Mt 12:39, Cor.1:18ff., etc. and change your mind.

DJS:

Sorry for that torn garment of yours!

I hope it is not THE irreplaceable one!

Amado

Really, djs, so sorry; I know seamless garments are expensive to replace...
Daniel

You know what's funny, too, is that Benny Hinn was raised Greek Orthodox!

What a whackjob!

Logos Teen

Come now lets not be so reactionary towards Arbannon. Obviously, as I've expressed, I dont agree with his use of deductive logic. However, I think we should allow him to voice his opinions.

I am particularly interested to hear why he feels that a miracle in Rome would be greeted with pride and publicity. Perhaps he has had bad experiences of Roman Catholics in the past? If that is so perhaps if we treat him respectfully his view of Catholics might change?

Fine; I still worry when djs' seamless garment is rent...
-D

Dear Arbannon,

I am Greek Orthodox, so I can say whatever I want about us...so there!

Now I really don't think that our Patriarch blowing out the candle of the Coptic Patriarch, or the people having 'fistcuffs' (fights) with one another in the Church, ( mind you), of the Holy Sepulcher on the holiest night of the year is very Christ-like.

But rethinking it, I realize that there is something political going on with the Coptic Church. I know I'm very limited in my Church knowledge, but we have had theologians that have said that the Copts are 'totally' Orthodox.

Yet we will not accept them, supposedly because of their non acceptance of a certain council. Could this non acceptance be purely political? So what do we have, a Church such as the Orthodox in the Holyland, being the biggest property owner in Israel and owning more property than anyone else and controlling most of the holy places, (and taking great pride in that)... Yet how can it be a Church when most of the people have either left or are leaving? Now answer me that?

I thought a Church was to be the gathering of 'people', not the possession of property and land. Answer me that one?

As for me, I say shame, shame, shame, because being the largest holders of the holy places, we are the one's that should be sharing everything with other Christian faiths. My first thought when seeing the mess in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the separation of the Catholics, Orthodox, Armenians, Copts, was where are the Lutherans. Aren't they Christian?

Well funny! I just heard that most Orthodox in the Holy land are now becoming Lutheran. The one's that haven't left yet that is.

Zenovia

Dear Arbanon, my Albanian brother,

As moderator, I must step in here.

I have just recently had the time to read over most of this thread and have to say that you have been out of line a few times.

(Orthodox Catholic. Unfortunately, in this topic, there is no theological discussion. You are wasting time, dear friend, in turning or understanding it as such.)

You seem to have insulted one of the most valued posters here, Alex/Orthodox/Catholic. Should most Orthodox be of such 'darkened mind' (I don't know exactly where that one got started) as our beloved Dr. Alex Roman, the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church would no longer be divided and the brother Patriarchs would no longer be estranged. He has, perhaps, the most 'enlightened heart' or 'nous' (eye of the soul) infact, that I have EVER encountered..and as far as I know, true Christian praxis is ultimately of the heart, not the mind.

You have also called Rome prideful. That is out of line for two reasons. For one, this is a forum of Orthodox practicing persons who have chosen to be with the First among equals of Patriarchs, the Holy Papa of Rome, just as the ethnic Orthodox churches of our countries (my country is, ofcourse, the U.S., but my ancestral homeland is Greece) have chosen to be with the other Patriarchs of the first millenium united Church.

Secondly, this is a forum whose God enlightened purpose is to celebrate the Eastern rite and to pray for eventual unity for the Eastern and Western Churches. It doesn't matter who we are associated with, we are all associated, first and foremost, with our Lord and Saviour, who commands us to love one another, and we try to do that.

Most of the sad schism continues because of the cultural divide and the inability of East and West to understand each other. On this forum, we do understand each other and we appreciate the unique prayers and avenues of spirituality which we both have. There is no schism in the hearts of most here, as there is no schism in the Heavenly Kingdom of our Lord.

We don't call Rome names here. We don't call Constantinople names here, and we don't call Moscow names here. Every once in a while, passions stir up over a news item or action of one of these Holy Sees, (you surely know what the Holy Fathers say about 'passions' of all kinds), and on such occasion it is the duty of the moderators to step in and stop the lack of charity and goodwill.

We are all human and thus we are all prideful. However, we are MOST prideful, many spiritual Fathers of Orthodoxy say, when we are judgemental. Surely, NO one place, person, or organization can claim the prize for that one.

That having been said, I would kindly ask you to apologize to our brethren in Christ here who are associated with Rome, whether of the Eastern or Latin persuasion-- for the sake of our Christ who tells us to seek forgiveness if we offend...(and let's not forget the Orthodox praxis we both know that greatly encourages this special type of humility)

I trust you meant no harm, and I really would like you to continue posting here. We are always blessed when we have posters from other countries sharing their thoughts. It is only by positive and constructive communication that all cultures can come to really know and understand each other.

Forgive me if I have misconstrued any of your intentions or posts.

Wishing you all good things in Christ,
Alice, Moderator

Dear Daniel you said:

"I say the true Church leader of the age must be Benny Hinn; after all he claims to raise the dead!"

I say:

You know there have been saints that have raised the dead, (Apostles, etc), but I really don't think Benny Hinn is one.

Zenovia

Dear Alice,

I invite you to read carefully the content of Alex'es posts, previos that of mine which you quote. I dont find mine out of line of his posts.

Expressions addressed to others like "wasting time", a ironical "darkened mind", and others, are not my creation.


As for pride, it is an opinion of mine, which I claim I have created based on readings of catholic historians themselves, like Emon Duffy "Saints and Sinners, a history of popes", that Rome, many times, has had such, and it is natural actually, since the pope throughout the second millenia tried hard to be at the same time Head of Church and State, being in the church some sort of an Roman Emperor, and being to the state some sort of Christ reigning in an humanly kingdom.


In this sense I might be named as someone, if you like, in extreme opposition towards papacy, or simply a opponent, but not an insulter to my catholic friends.
Uniatism is not a fruit of reconciliation but of conquest, neither of good religious will but political need, not of open mindeness but of short judgement.


Yes, since it is your forum, if you dont want a non uniate person to express ideas that run contrary to yours, in here I do apologize, and I do thank you for allowing me sofar to say what I wanted to say.


I am in this board because in everyday life is not easy to communicate with especially Uniates. Our albanian uniates are emigrants since 500 years in southern Italy. We know they exist but we dont know very good their situation.


I am not in this board because I am looking for reconciliation in the way you are doing it, although I am open minded to discuss our diversities.


thank you

Dear djs

you have misquoted me, by leaving the other part of sentence out, which explains the context of Holy Fire being the greatest miracle in Christian world.


thanks

Dear Zenovia

Miracle signs of true faith, like the Sacraments, are not given because of moral dignity and wortheness of the one who ministers them, but because constiuting the true office of the church.


No doubt, greeks, morally, have done (or might have done) many mistakes during history, like every other nation. This is out of this topic, I think.


greetings

Dear Arbanon: does not alter the poverty of your remark. Compare, for example, the fire and the Eucharist according to these criteria. And please read the verses suggested earlier on the relative significance of "signs".