www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Holy light of Jerusalem

Dear Zenovia,


As we said, and you agree with this, Holy Light is not given because of Patriarch's wortheness. I claim (and I am not the only one) that it is given on account of True Orthodoxy of the Church.

Problems, of the sort Jerusalem's patriarch is facing, exist alloever the churches, east and west, and it is out of topic to discuss them.


But, when it comes to question of the (orthodox) church reaching the hearts of people, then, you surely, should reexamine your opinion that the church has failed in to that direction.


A second thing I have to say to you is that there is a big difference between mistakes happened in East and those in West.
At least, we, orthodox christians, claim that in West mistakes resulted in error of the Church Institution, it effected its teaching and spirituality by bringing till then foreign elements and formulations of Faith, whereas in East (I mean in orthodox churches) doctrine hasnt been effected from mistakes.


I am not saying this, but it is for example people like Philip Sherrard (e.g "Christian East and Latin West"), you must surely know of. Moreover this is the belief of our Church, otherwise we wouldnt call ourselves orthodox.
Orthodox is not merely a technical term we are using in contrast to the other terms other western or eastern churches are using.

I apologize for my misspellings. Most of them come because I have no time (some surely because my english is not perfect), or I am too lazy, as it takes too much time, to look at them again and again.


Philip Sherrard "Greek East and Latin West".

Arbanon,

With all due respect, it seems to me that you continue to ignore some important points that have been made here. As such, I will try to make them more explicitly.

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign" (Matthew 12:39).

[This is not to say that I think the Orthodox fall under this category, but the point is that we ought not to simply decide which is the "True Faith" based on signs and wonders:] "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs an wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:24). Even the Antichrist comes with signs and wonders (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

"Not every one that says unto me, �Lord, Lord,� shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, �Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23). [In other words, the "wonderful works" (miraculous things) that have been done do not necessarily say anything about one's standing in the Kingdom of Heaven.]

"And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign?" (Mark 8:11-12).

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:22-23).

All of this tells us that "signs" and miracles cannot be the basis on which we now decide the "True Faith." The point has been made that our faith is in even greater miracles: namely, Christ crucified and resurrected.

Furthemore, there are doubts even about this sign. Amado already posted this link here: from the Guardian [holyfire.org] .

On these grounds, do you really wish to suggest that we ought to determine whether or not we are members of the "True Faith" based on the miracle of the Holy Fire? I do not doubt that a real miracle occurs there. As others have noted as well, the Catholic Church allows this. But clearly, in light of the above, when there are still grounds for doubt about even this miracle (as there will likely be about any miracle), and when Scripture admonishes against seeking after a sign and against believing that "wonderful works" and miracles are the criteria by which one judges his/her standing in the Kingdom of Heaven, and when the Catholic Church even allows that this may be a genuine miracle, it would seem to make no sense whatsoever for any of us to determine the "True Faith" based on the Holy Fire. We ought not to be deciding based on signs and wonders.

Thanks, and God bless,
Jason

P.S. As for Philip Sherrard's book, I note again the words of Cambridge religion scholar Anna Williams (which I cited to you in another thread): "[Philip Sherrard's] The Greek East and the Latin West fully equals [Martin] Jugie for both its bitter tone and its apparent determination to misread the texts and authors it purports to analyze" (Anna Williams, Ground of Union: Deification in Aquinas and Palamas, p. 14). We should be careful to put too much stock into that one book, in my (and her) opinion.

Might we perhaps return to an illuminating discussion of the Holy Light? After all, Φωσ Χριστου φαινει πασι!

Σηγνομη - my e-mail program cannot cope with Greek diacritical signs, nor with the final sigma!

Incognitus

Dear Arbanon you said:

"As we said, and you agree with this, Holy Light is not given because of Patriarch's wortheness. I claim (and I am not the only one) that it is given on account of True Orthodoxy of the Church."

I say:

Actually, (in my mind at least), it is given because of the unity of faith among the people at that specific time and place. If this were not so, then why is it that it appears immediately at some times, and yet at other times it takes hours upon hours.

As for true 'Orthodox', it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean that people who are not Orthodox are being taught wrongly in their values, etc. and how to achieve unity with God, then that certainly would be a 'heresy'. They are being led astray.

If you mean 'exactness' in every word, and everything that someone knows and does, then that would be a heresy because it would illiminate the ignorant, such as children and the mentally disabled, from achieving God's Grace.

You said:

"But, when it comes to question of the (orthodox) church reaching the hearts of people, then, you surely, should reexamine your opinion that the church has failed in to that direction."

I say:

I have found in my 'experience', (and remember that it is only my experience), that the most devout Orthodox have acquired their spiritual 'growth' from listening to, and reading the writings of other denominations. Probably because these sermons and writings are more relative to us culturally. In that sense the Orthodox Church has failed, but that could be said about the Latin Church too, and many others Churches throughout the world.

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the Church. What is wrong is that we are not willing to unite with others in what is important in our doctrines and beliefs and what is not. That way we would be able to utilize the talents and gifts God has given to everyone for the souls of the people He loves.

You said:

A second thing I have to say to you is that there is a big difference between mistakes happened in East and those in West.
At least, we, orthodox christians, claim that in West mistakes resulted in error of the Church Institution, it effected its teaching and spirituality by bringing till then foreign elements and formulations of Faith, whereas in East (I mean in orthodox churches) doctrine hasnt been effected from mistakes.

I say:

I think what you consider mistakes, is really the linguistic and cultural differences, because they result in personality differences between people raised in the Latin Church and West in general, and people raised in the East. These personality differences are misunderstood and distrusted and are then considered a fault within the teachings of the faith.

When I considered and thought about the doctrines, such as the Immaculate Conception, (which by the way was not accepted by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Katerine of Sienna, yet accepted by Greek theologians of the time), and wondered why God would tell two highly miraculous saints that the Theotokos is the 'Immaculate Conception' since that would cause friction within the Catholic and Orthodox Church and hinder unity, I realized that God must have had a more serious reason.

Accepting that these saints were truly Saints, and that the miracles, expecially at Lourdes, are continuing to this day, I realized that the Catholic Church must have been fighting Protestant heresies.

At the same time, I understand though that the Orthodox live within their own world view of the Church, and can only see the Latin 'branch' as ursurping the authority of the Ecumenical Councils..and that someday this 'arrogance' might lead to grave heresy.

Zenovia

Dear Ecce Jason,

I love that article. Here the reporter was gathering the 'truth' about the Holy Fire from an Armenian chef, who, (as they say), spilled the beans. What next?

Funny when it comes to Christianity, the reporters in England seem to be free to say whatever they please about whomever they please, as long as it's negative and derogatory...and a blatant lie. Sometimes they even win awards for that.

The true miracle though, should be apparent. Here we have volatile Greeks with Copts, Palestinians, Armenians, etc., standing for hours on end, waiting in a poorly ventilated church for the flame to appear...no matter where, and there is only one small door, (or so I've heard) to enter the church. All those candles! Now someone must be protecting all those people, and it's not the Israeli guards... although they'd like to say they are.

Zenovia

Dear Ecce Jason,


I do completely agree with you, that Miracles (or what people think as miracles) are not what determines the Truth in a superior and exclusive way.
If you were thinking that my opinion was that based on that miracle solely (and because of it), I claim that Eastern Orthodox church is the True one, thanks for remarking that should not be so.


But, in reality, I never said that.


On the other hand, along with passages you brought from the Gospel, I believe, and for that I could bring entire passages from the Bible and everyday Church life, that Miracles have been and can be used as Signs of Truth.
So we see Moses, Elijas and so many examples in the earlu church, were miracles were given as signs of truth.
Actually, that is the case even in the Catholic Church, to mention, the miracles of Antonio di Padova vs Catharist; Francis of Asisi in Egypt vs the muslim 'priest" by claiming that truth between them could be determined from the one who was ready to throw himself in fire and endure it.

The reason I brought up the Holy Light issue in this honorable forum is that this argument, actually, I have heard from others, and to be honest with you these 'others' were monks from Mount Athos.
But I had never the chance to see, apart of imagining myself what the answers would be, what non-orthodox christians say about Holy Fire.

Yes, I have heard of it. And, I marvel at it.

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/index.html


I think it is a miracle !


I don't know. I also don't know why the Eucharistic miracles, especially the one in Lanciano, Italy, were given to the Catholics.

(Sadly, the main website about this miracle appears to be gone. But, here are some webpages about it:

http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/giubileo/en/itinerari/lanciano/index.html

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html )


Do these miracles prove that one Church is better than the other? I don't think so. I think, instead, that God is better than us all and that He is trying --by all kinds of graces-- to get us to repent and to trust and to love Him.

-- John

Ok, thanks


but the only thing is that Eucharistic miracles are not given ONLY and exclusively to catholics.


greetings...

Zenovia,

You said: Don't get me wrong; by no means do I think that article is definitive, nor do I necessarily even agree with it. My point was only that there is never any conclusive proof for any of these things, and I'm sure you would agree.

Thanks, and God bless,
Jason

Yes, Arbanon, but there aren't two Holy Fires or two Holy Sepulchres so we don't really have a chance at that one! The Eucharist is in all Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches!

What, pray tell, are your explanations as to the countless miracles coming forth from the Catholic Church?

Logos Teen

That article doesnt mention that Miracle sometimes doesnt happen inside the sepulchre. On the contrary, as Orthodox Catholic (Alex) mentioned, there have been cases when people's candles were lit themselves as they were wainting for the patriarch to come outside.
I have even seen in a Video, that the entire Church Lampadas and a lot of people's candles were lit by a visible blue light coming from above.


Dear Logos


I dont know how to answer your question. I mean, I know, I am aware, logically I cannot deny, there are miracles happening in Catholic churches. Here in Albania, a sanctuary of Antony of Padua in a town named Lac (from latin, menas lake), is probably one of the most miracleworking places in Europe.


Again, it is not exclusive catholic, because even in orthodox churches in here there are such miracles.


We cannot deny these wonders.


Nevertheless, what I believe, is that when confronting both orthodox and catholics, as two church institution claiming to be the true concurrent inheritors of the true church, God will support orthodoxy visibly.
Again, I know that this is not how things work necessarily, otherwise the Florence Issue would have been solved easely.

Arbanon,

I think you're missing my implication, which is that if you use miracles to support a Church's authenticity, then you would necessarily have to conclude that the Catholic Church is just as "authentic" as the Eastern Orthodox Churches, or that Grace flows throughout the Catholic Church as well.

I do not try and support a Church's authenticity with miraculous occurances, and therefore miracles that happen in non-Catholic Churches/ecclesial communities really don't prove anything to me, other than the fact that God graces whom He wishes.

Since we're on the topic, the 67th official miracle of Lourdes has just been announced.

Logos Teen

Dear Arbannon:

Actually God only wants us to come to Him. Now if one way works for one people, and another way works for another people, I really don't think it matters to Him which 'way or road' someone takes.

If of course, the road one takes is faulty, and they can't reach Him, then it's a different story. But we are not talking of severe heresies here such as the Muslims or even worse the Mormons, who aren't even heretics but a different faith altogether. Nor are we talking about some Christian denominations that have adopted an everything is relative mentality where Christianity becomes whatever they want it to be.

Now this brings to mind a story I had heard on an Evangelical program about a Protestant minister that lived, (and suffered), in India for many decades. In all the years in India, he only managed to convert a little over a hundred people.

One day he had a dream, (or vision), where our Lord told him not to tell them to become Christians, but rather to follow 'Him'. A big difference because if one considers it, everyone has their own sense of cultural 'identity'. To tell someone to change that identity and worship in a way that is alien to them, it would be the same as telling them that we are superior.

Now you said:

"Nevertheless, what I believe, is that when confronting both orthodox and catholics, as two church institution claiming to be the true concurrent inheritors of the true church, God will support orthodoxy visibly."

And I say:

If you take into account what I said above about God's only concern is for us to 'attain' Him, then certainly He can only perceive someone that belongs to a church institution and making claims that his institution is above the other and the "true concurrent inheritors of the 'true' church;" as being a perfect example of our 'sinful' prideful nature.

In other words, we have not as yet attained the inner perfection that He wants us to strive for.

Zenovia