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>>>However, my personal opinion is that while we ought to strive for that, we also need to realize that the second millenium declarations and
definitions actually happened and actually have meaning. We Orthodox can't seriously expect the Catholics to abandon Vatican I as a dogmatic
matter, and surely the Catholics can't expect us to accept Vatican I as a dogmatic matter. ISTM, then, that the best way to proceed is to try, with
an open mind and without needless narrowness of thought, to find a common understanding of these things that have been defined by each of
us since the separation. The reunion council, together with the prep before that, are the proper context for that.<<<
The question then becomes whether the Orthodox Church will allow the Roman Church enough wiggle room to do its weaseling act (I'm sorry, to "issue proper clarifications of what the Church has always taught and believed"), or whether in its desire for justification in the eyes of men it is going to demand unconditional surrender and abject humiliation. Granted, turnabout would be fair play for Lyons II and Florence, but does that really reflect the true ethos of Orthodox Christianity? Sun Tzu, famous Chinese strategist, wrote that one should always leave your enemy a golden bridge, an escape route, so that he will not be tempted to fight to the death. Ecclesiastically, will Orthodoxy leave a golden bridge for the Church of Rome, so that a face-saving solution is possible? Or will it really demand the last ounce of flesh, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life?
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Robert,
One problem with your approach is your inability to think objectively beyond the confines of your own theological system.
(My approach is my ability to discern the truth from falsehood and tell you how it really is. I am not as good as an innovator as Rome when it comes to manipulating theology and semantics. I'll stick to Orthodoxy, thank you).
There is nothing wrong with believing that one's faith is the true faith, true Church true everything.
(That's what the heterodox and heretics say. Where do we draw the line? Is it permissiable to stretch and exagerate the truth to the point it is no longer recognizable?)
But where you are wrong is in assuming that the "true faith" is so obvious to everyone else and that they only need admit their own errors and submit to the "truth."
(The True Faith is obvious to you who post here and who have a strong feel for Orthodoxy. However you do not want to admit that the See of Rome has fallen from our communion and continue to play the art of semantics to justify the position of uniatism.)
God has allowed the Roman Catholic Church to exist, for the Uniate Churches that you love so well to exist. God has a holy intention for them.
(I cant speak for God or what His intentions are. However, I do know that heresies still continue to live with us in various guises that try so hard to appeal to naive and innocent hearts. It's sort of like an unfortunate infectious virus that doesn't leave the host and continues to spread. Somewhat like Gnosticism, Arianism and Islam. Well, maybe God kept the existence of Islam for 1400 years since you logically believe there are holy intentions behind this great lie.)
And this was told to me by a Patriarchal Russian Orthodox priest. He told me not to be so critical of "Uniatism" or of the Greek Catholic Churches since so much good has come from them.
(I think what the priest was trying to say was that uniatism will break one day and return to Orthodoxy. Uniates will realize one day where they belong and empower the Orthodox Church.)
Sorry if THAT causes you some distress . . .
(Don't worry Alex. I am not distressed.)
But I'm only telling you the Truth as I heard it from that priest.
He also told me that the schism between East and West has hurt BOTH Churches, that they are BOTH not what they used to be, are lacking in what God wants them to have as a result of the breakup.
Orthodoxy has much great truth. But its weaknesses and problems derive from the imbalances caused by the breakup of 1054. It matters little who was at fault or whether Orthodoxy maintained the Apostolic Faith better than RCism.
(Orthodoxy has no weaknesses. Weakness come from those who do not believe and practice. It matters a whole lot on who has maintained the fullness of the Apostolic Faith. This I can say for Orthodoxy.)
In the final analysis, what the Church must answer for is how faithful it was to its Master's injunction regarding being one, even as He and the Father are one.
(I agree with you)
This perspective is what changed me years ago from being a person who would normally call someone like you a "schismatic in invincible ignorance" to one who believes that all Truth comes from the Holy Spirit.
(Call me what you like but don't call me on Sunday during Liturgy.)
Alex
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Originally posted by NDHoosier:
Hmmm...this thread is like the Twilight Zone...
I find myself AGREEING with Dr. John, and DISAGREEING with Alex!
(sounds of band playing "The World Turned Upside Down" in the background)
As far as I am concerned, whatever the problems the Catholic Church has, it is at least trying to approach all the Apostolic Churches - Eastern Orthodox included - in a spirit of charity. The Eastern Orthodox hierarchs reciprocate with intrasigence and disdain - hardly a charitable position (the exceptions are hereby noted).
I wholeheartedly agree with Dr. John that the Orthodox suffer from the delusion that they haven't instigated one innovation in the Church since the Last Supper. ("We are as pure as the driven snow...now go back to your outhouse!")
(Orthodoxy does not suffer from delusions. It's people who do not know what they are talking about in particularly the Latins and her communions).
I'm on my way to becoming Byzantine Catholic. I have found a spiritual treasure I *NEVER* dreamt of finding in the Latin Church. I won't have that taken away from me without a fight! Some Orthodox will undoubtedly say I should join them, but I won't put myself out of communion with the Successor of St. Peter.
(How about that! Truly amazing! Discovering the Byzantine Catholic Church inside the Latin Church. Then what are all these Byzantine Catholics in these forums complaining about maintaining their traditions and theologies! Who told you that Rome has monopoly on St. Peter? All the Orthodox Sees are in communion with St. Peter and the Apostles but not with Rome. You may be very well out of communion with St. Peter.)
And as far as "jurisdictional invasions" - I have no problem WHATSOEVER with parallel hierarchies. The idea of "one bishop per territory" was fine in the days when mass migrations didn't take place - but the United States is a nation of immigrants. I experience not the slightest intellectual or spiritual dissonance in having two or more bishops in a territory, because mere turf isn't what counts.
(Obviously you are not aware of the history & establishment of uniatism especially in the Middle East where I am originally from. I would have been very happy if Rome would have proselytized the Muslims rather than the Orthodox, "the schismatics".)
[This message has been edited by NDHoosier (edited 08-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by michael:
There is no Orthodox federation. When was the last time that the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Patriarch of Moscow, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria and the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch conducted a Pan-Orthodox Council? In the 19th century?
There are a myriad of Orthodox churches who do not really get along with each other.
I doubt that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow send Christmas cards to each other. This is because the EP and the MP have been fighting over who has jurisdiction over parishes in Eastern Europe {Estonia and Ukraine come to mind, to quote just two examples}.
In theory, the EP is supposed to be first among equals among the Orthodox Patriarchs, which infuriates the MP (even though the MP was formed much later than the EP). This is because the MP wants to be top dog.
As I remember, this is supposed to be a Byzantine Catholic forum which is supposed to help strengthen the Byzantine Catholics and those of us Latin Catholic [horrors, Mr. Sweiss(!?!)] who are interested in Byzantine Catholicism. This is not, I believe, supposed to be a forum where certain members of Orthodox churches come in to slam Byzantine Catholicism, the Pope, the Roman Catholic Church, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum, which is what I have seen happen on many numerous occasions. If Mr. Sweiss and others want to knock Catholicism and say that Orthodoxy is the only true church, there are plenty of Orthodox websites where they can do this, I am sure. [If you don't like what I have to say then don't say anything. Catholicism needs repairs. I haven't slammed anyone if your read my posts. Are you wearing sunglasses like my little guy on the top? I am staying here since I like this forum and its people. So there. lol]
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Originally posted by michael:
Stuart,
Even in apostolic times, there was never a unity of faith. Saint Paul in his Epistles, talks about others claiming to proclaim the Gospel that are not true apostles.
There have been all sorts of divisions and schisms even in the early Catholic Church [Arianism, the fight over whether icons should be allowed, the role of the Theotokos, whether Jesus Christ was human and divine, et cetera]. People left the Church because they did not believe what the Church taught on all sorts of matters of faith. To claim that there was never unity of the Faith during Apostolic times is the claim of the evil one. It does not surprise me to hear language like this. It's the language of those who live outside of Orthodoxy. The Apostles and the Saints had an awareness of the evil one's plot to divide the Church. Romans 16:17-18 states "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple." All that comes to mind as I read this is the Latin house of Rome fully embellished with dogmas contrary to Orthodoxy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what we know & see & feel as Orthodox. Orthodoxy and Catholicism will never be compatible. Not because I have said so. Take time and explore the evidence and it will be overwhelming. 1 Corinthians 1:10 states "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the SAME THING, and that there be NO DIVISIONS AMONG YOU, but that YOU BE PERFECTLY JOINED TOGETHER IN THE SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGMENT." How can any honest and sincere Christian claim that the Orthodoxy and Catholicism should be perfectly joined together in the SAME MIND AND IN THE SAME JUDGMENT? How on earth do you reconcile the so-called 8-21 Roman Catholic Ecumenical Councils to Orthodoxy? Will someone care to show me some semantic magic tricks? 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 states "Now I say this, that each of you, says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of CEPHAS." or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" I don't recall the numerous times I have heard them say "It's important to be in communion with St. Peter. Therefore we have to be in communion with Rome." This is utter nonsense from an Orthodox perspective and a distortion of the Catholic Orthodox Faith. Rome and her people need to return to the first millinium in common unity of the Orthodox Faith. Try swallowing the Scriptural verses. I rather swallow those verses than be swallowed by a whale like Jonah. I don't see why returning to the essentials of the Orthodox Faith within the Orthodox Church is so troubling to many that post here. What is really troubling is the current state of affairs of & within Catholicism not willing to admit erroneous teachings that may be responsible for the breakdown of western society. I believe Orthodoxy will flourish and help counter the spread of the breakdown here in the West before it is severly attacked again.
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Joined: Nov 2001
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Originally posted by bill tomoka:
You make a good point. But, contrary to what many on this forum sincerely want to believe, at the deanery and parish level, reunion/union is not a very important issue for most Orthodox.
Institutional/jurisdictional unity is more of a Roman priority than a priority for the Orthodox who see union in a very different light i.e., it is essentially eucharistic and based on a common faith, not on union with a common pontiff. (Unless Catholics are willing to share with us that the only "pontiff and universal pastor" the Greeks will ever submit to is Christ our Lord.)
Herding Greeks is like herding cats...extremely frustrating since we are not like the Ukrainians and Rusyns, but have our own understanding of authority and authority figures and what type of obedience we owe ( or do not owe) to them. The lock-step mentality of a Roman legionnaire is completely foreign to the contemporary Greek Orthodox mindset.
So...be patient. You will probably never see union/reunion during your lifetime, but it will come in God's time..not ours.
Peace
Bill
"Now is the acceptable time. Now is the day of salvation. If today you hear his voice harden not your hearts." God's time seems like a cop out for human sinfulness. God's will is unity. Ours the duty to conform ourselves with God's will. Fr Stephanos
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Originally posted by michael:
There is no Orthodox federation. When was the last time that the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Patriarch of Moscow, the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria and the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch conducted a Pan-Orthodox Council? In the 19th century?
There are a myriad of Orthodox churches who do not really get along with each other.
I doubt that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow send Christmas cards to each other. This is because the EP and the MP have been fighting over who has jurisdiction over parishes in Eastern Europe {Estonia and Ukraine come to mind, to quote just two examples}.
In theory, the EP is supposed to be first among equals among the Orthodox Patriarchs, which infuriates the MP (even though the MP was formed much later than the EP). This is because the MP wants to be top dog.
As I remember, this is supposed to be a Byzantine Catholic forum which is supposed to help strengthen the Byzantine Catholics and those of us Latin Catholic [horrors, Mr. Sweiss(!?!)] who are interested in Byzantine Catholicism. This is not, I believe, supposed to be a forum where certain members of Orthodox churches come in to slam Byzantine Catholicism, the Pope, the Roman Catholic Church, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum, which is what I have seen happen on many numerous occasions. If Mr. Sweiss and others want to knock Catholicism and say that Orthodoxy is the only true church, there are plenty of Orthodox websites where they can do this, I am sure. Dear Michael, This is exactly why Rome has a primacy. To avoid these silly and foolish squabblings within the Pentarchy. God preserve us. Fr Stephanos
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>>>Herding Greeks is like herding cats...<<<
Herding cats is easy--been doing it all my life. Walk in front of them carrying a smelly fish until you get them where you want to go.
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Originally posted by StuartK:
>>>Herding Greeks is like herding cats...<<<
Herding cats is easy--been doing it all my life. Walk in front of them carrying a smelly fish until you get them where you want to go. Smelly fish isn't good enough for Greeks. How do you feel about carrying octopus? Or maybe you can you carry lamb on a spit? Bill
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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Orthodoxy is dead serious about a number of theological issues with which it takes issue. As is Catholicism, which in both cases is no doubt contributing to the ongoing impasse. If Orthodoxy sees no movement from Rome on the issue of the Filioque, then, from the Orthodox point of view, it is Rome who refuses to bend at all, not Orthodoxy.
Rome has given come to a more Orthodox understanding of the filioque and has quietly allowed it disuse among Eastern Catholics. The Pope has even omitted it occasionally out of respect for Eastern sensibilities. What more do you want? Call it a day and quit using this as an excuse, for it is no longer viable.
Orthodox representatives have told Rome that the Filioque could remain a theological opinion, but that it has no place in the universal Creed meant to express the faith of the Universal Church. Rome seems to agree to the principles of this, but the Filioque is still there and is still a sign of no meaningful movement by Rome to the Orthodox.
Baloney. It was meant to address Western concerns and has become part of the tradition of the West. Are you asking us to refrain from using it as well?
There are some other issues, but intransigence is in the eye of the beholder. But I agree that we should promise not to call each other "schismatics" or "heretics."
The only remaining issue of any significance is the Petrine Primacy. The rest are shibboleths.
Pax Christi,
John
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I think Brother Tomoka makes an interesting point in saying that the run-of-the-mill, 'blue-collar' Orthodox, isn't really interested in the issue of "universal Church". I agree. Many folks in the pews are primarily concerned with the issues of the parish and perhaps - more or less - of the diocese. I think that the 'agitation' that is being done by 'certain ones', both Catholic and Orthodox, is keeping the issue on the front burner with the hope that it WILL at some time lead to fruitful dialogue and eventually re-union.
As for the presence of Robert "Johnny-One-Note" Sweiss ("Rome must re-unite itself to Orthodoxy"), it is TOTALLY appropriate that he and other Orthodox with their varying opinions be present here. For that is precisely the purpose of this Forum; it's our Byzantine/Constantinopolitan family chattin'! Sometimes we agree; sometimes we disagree; sometimes we say 'uncomfortable' things. But the key factor is that Byzantine CAtholics and Byzantine Orthodox (and our 'allied' brethren, East and West) get a chance to talk and hash out some ideas. Sometimes (oftentimes?), we're messy. So what?
So, while some are 'legally' oriented, others are 'quote Masters' and others are 'pastoral', the fact remains that we are all in this Christian endeavor together. And to dismiss one or another participant on the grounds of being 'outside the circle' is just not the Greek/Byzantine way. (I actually think it would be good if a few Near Eastern Mohammedeeeens came in periodically.)
Blessings!
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Dr. John,
My middle name is Robert Jamal Sweiss. And don't you forget it. Who is "Johnny-One-Note"? Maybe he is one of my relatives? LOL. Or maybe all that I have been saying is in Tone 1 until today it's in Tone 2?
We will always be family though estranged. As part of the wonderful creation I love you people even though we may agree & disagree on many issues dear to our souls. May God lead us to the straight path in Christ Jesus. Amin.
P.S. Be careful in referring to a Muslim as a Mohammedeeeen. They don't like it any more than the BLT (Bacon-Lettuce-Tomatoes)sandwiches from Subway.
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Thanks, Robert Jamal. Your presence here -- even though it is most often "You must come back to Orthodoxy" -- is, in my opinion, very important. I only wish that you would go beyond the one thematic and engage more in the specific issues rather than your usual theme: "Re-unite with Orthodoxy".
Yeah, I know about the "Mohamedeeeeeen" thing. I just did it to emphasize the point that we Christians oftentimes just put them in a box, and then ignore them. And, as nasty as some Moslems can sometimes be, they are an integral part of who we Near Eastern Christians are and will be.
Blessings, buddy! Stay well!
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