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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidB:

So, we have four choices.
1) It is the Word of God.
2) It is the ramblings of a crazy man who thinks it is the Word of God.
3) It is an out right lie of a man who knows it's not the Word of God but claims that it is.
4) It was written by a man deceived into believing that it was the Word of God.

To which one of your four theories do you believe the Pope adheres to? He did kiss the Holy Quran.

God bless!

Abdur

From at least the time of Pope Saint Gregory VII, who wrote a friendly letter to the Muslim king of Mauretania (c. 1076), the church has been aware of the bonds of shared Abrahamic belief and morality of Christians and Muslims. These bonds could one day become the foundation of enduring mutual understanding and respect between the two peoples.

Nevertheless, a negative approach to Islam was formerly common within the Church for much of the modern period. With the Second Vatican Council, the church began to consciously reject its former approach to Islam and embrace a new agenda. In its document Nostra Aetate, the Council called upon the faithful to recognize and explore the rich spiritual heritage common to Christianity and Islam so that the future of Christian-Muslim relations may no longer center around violent confrontation but rather around peaceful and mutually enriching exchange and dialogue.

So what is the Catholic view of Islam? On the basic level of everyday experience, it is the view embodied by mutual respect and recognition of a common human dignity. On a more philosophical level, a meaningful Catholic view of Islam can only be the fruit of earnest and broad-based dialogue between Catholics and Muslims. That dialogue has only just begun. What's important for Catholics of this new millennium is that we take deliberate steps in the direction of understanding and appreciating Islam, rather than in the direction of hostility and conflict. Such were the steps taken by Pope John Paul II last May when, out of great love and respect, he removed his shoes and made history by entering the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus, Syria. His example beckons us all to reject ignorance and prejudice, and to follow the paths of dialogue in our own interreligious journeys, wherever they may take us.

Kurt,

And why do you think he entered that mosque in Syria? Maybe because it is St. John the Baptist's tomb that was a church that the Moslems desecrated?

Let's not read more into things than there is. I am fine with Muslims (I was engaged to one once!) on a personal level, and will stand with such persons as the illustrious Bishop of the Church of God at Rome and other prominent people in condemning racial and religous bigotry towards Muslims (as I did once on this forum a year ago), BUT Islam as a religion is intent on converting all peoples (not necessarily a bad thing, we believe the same after all), and so I will resist it.

I have a copy of the Koran at home which I read from time to time when controversies arise in the media, so no one should accuse me of buying into ignorant positions. I believe in dialogue, but really, what is going to be the result? We believe Jesus is God, Muslims don't. Plain and simple. If we want to work together to change society, great; but we can sit around all day and discuss our different religions, but in the end we are going to have to agree to disagree (being engaged to a Muslim provided many opportunities for this). So why get our hopes up in the first place? We should focus on bringing the gospel to all peoples (Muslims included). I don't advocate preaching hellfire to Muslims; HOWEVER this lackidasical "I'll do my thing you do yours" attitude is NOT going to produce any conversions to Christ--our primary mission!

In Christ,

anastasios

Abdur: The blessings of God for all men persecuted for their faith.

I agree with you that the Native Americans were treated very badly by the Europeans! The men that persecuted your people in the Balkans with Ethnic Cleansing were not Christians but evil brutes, unthinking swine. But I would put the same label on the Moslems that carried out Ethnic Cleansing on Christians in the Balkans. All who were involved with ethnic cleansing should be punished. In the Balkans the US and Europe intervened to save Moslem lives in a just cause. I do not think that Moslem nations would interven to save Christians.

Give them not what they desire but what they need said the Sufi. I would not insult you with lies. In your case you carry the blood of both sides of the religious devide. Rather than practice war we should allow people freedom of religion so that they can convert. That is a crime punishable by death in Islam. Today in Egypt men are executed for converting to Christianity. The Virgin Mary is appearing and even devote Moslems see her there. The Copts remain a persecuted minority in their native land of Egypt while the Colonizers and decendents of the Islamic Crusaders flaunt their power. Another case is the treatment of the Native People of the Sudan that suffer enslavement and Ethnic Cleansings at the hands of Moslem Crusaders and Colonists.

I have studied Islam and am able to see the good in it as well as the scars. Ask your Sufi Baba if you have given this matter the proper study. Pretending a thing does not exist does not make it go away. I have studied the life of Mohammed and will not slander him. Have you studied his life? When compared to the Christ he is found wanting. I admire that he interwove elements of Manni and Christianity with native paganism to form a Christian heresy. You should research this matter and provide quotes or books for me to read as to prove your point. I might be a Sufi myself in mufti.

Good to meet a brother that shares the blood of Rum. As a son of Rum you are one of the survivors of the fall of the City. We are so few in the modern world. I believe that New York City has the largest number of Romiosini of any city. I still eat the meals we ate when we lived on the Golden Horn. I made Ragu for our dinner. Ragu is steak friend with lots of onions and then covered with water and simmered for hours to make a wonderous onion gravey and tender meat. Good food fills a man's belly and charges his energy.

My great fear is that Islamic Terrorists will use weapons of mass destruction and millions of innocent Moslems will die in a massive counter strike.

Angelus,

It is because I have studied the Prophet's life that I believe in him.
Any Sufi will tell you the same.
For me, the Prophet is an icon of the "Old Testament saints," and, for me, that is a fact that I can resonate with.

One of the reasons I have remained loyal to Islam is because it is syncretistic and even admits to that fact. Why do you think Sufis have found a home within Islam? Sufism, I hope you know, is syncretistic and never hides the fact.

All religions are syncretistic and have "begged, borrowed, and stolen," from other religions. For example, resurrection myths are common throughout many religions and folk beliefs the world over. The concept of resurrection certainly is not unique to Christianity, and I also believe it is a Manichean belief, as is the concept of a sacramental and holy communion with a godhead. Find yourself a few good books on religious anthropology or the history of religion and you will find many concepts both Muslims and Christians, even Jews, claim to be original to their revelations actually have precursors in older religions and spiritual practices. To paraphrase you, ignoring these facts will not make them go away.

Islam is the religion of unity, of the gathering together of all of God's prophets, holy scriptures, and religious traditions. That being the case, it would be absurd for Islam to deny its syncretistic composition. Syncretism---the gathering together into unity---should be the glory of Islam in general as it is for Sufi Muslims in particular.

God bless!

Abdur

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur: May God bless you and yours and all that seek here.

I have read many books but as with you I see my religion as the right one. Mohammeds fatal flaws tell me he was not the Messenger of God. I have read the Koran many times. Now I have not seen the two other versions of the Koran that once existed. I judge a man by his actions and not his words. In the case of Mohammed these prove fatal. Since I live in the World of War and am not a Moslem that fact governs the actions of some Moslems.

The anchorites have long been in the desert. In the desert one sees the hand of God at work and the wonders of God. When you pray alone in the desert you can see yourself so well. To travel in mind and spirit to learn is a goodly thing. Recommend your books and I shall read them. Have you read Bat Ye'or's books? How long have you been a seeker? Let the seeker awake.

Our differences revolve around Allah's essence and His manifestations, or attributes, even His "uncreated attributes" which can also be considered His limitations, or His Names, or His desire and ability to be self-limiting.

Muslims can accept God's divine manifestations, or the manifestations of His attributes "incarnated" in mortal humans, or saints and prophets, if you will.

However, these manifestations or even uncreated attributes can never contain Allah's essence, which is indivisable. Therefore, since these manifestations and attributes can never be God in Essence, they cannot be worshipped as Divine Incarnations of God's Essence. To worship them would be an act of idolatry, according to Islam.

Essence cannot exist as a state of multiplicity.

God's Unity is indivisable.

Abdur

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Well Angelus, at least you are honest. That is a rare quality today when people are obsessed with image and every kind of "correctness."

Islam is in my blood and Sufism is in my heart.

I can't possibly thank God enough for such love and grace.

God bless!

Abdur

Abdur,

I would offer a comparison of Christianity to Muhammadism but no examination beyond your "Prophet" is really nesesary.

Muhhammad was no prophet. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship with Aisha a 9-year-old child, his killing sprees, his massacre and the genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans, his burning of the palm plantations, his destroying the water wells, his cursing and invoking evil on his enemies and his revenge on his captured prisoners of war disqualify him as a decent human being let alone the messenger of God

His Quran is the product of halucinations or is an outright lie - certainly no "miracle". Studied in Christianity, he borrowed some truths to wrap up his evil. The Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities and grammatical errors. I sure hope the author of this Universe is not as ignorant as the author of the Quran.

Kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). Muslims are to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that "they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (Q.5: 34). The "holy Prophet" demanded his follower to "strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; then after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Q. 47: 4). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Muhammad allowed the Muslims to marry up to four views and gave them license to sleep with their slave maids and as many "captive" women as they may have (Q. 4:3). He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers raped up to 250,000 Bangali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are unislamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women and then kill them after calling them apostates and the enemies of Allah.

I would say you do worship a god, but most assuredly, he is the "god" who was self-appointed and fell from heaven.

Aren't Women in Islam Oppressed?

Testimonies of Christian women who have converted to Islam

www.sharif.org.uk/women.htm [sharif.org.uk]

The Serbian Orthodox raped thousands of Bosnian Muslim women ( and others) during the last Yugoslav war. The rape of Serb or Croat women by Slavic Muslims was practically unknown, and for the handful of Muslim soldiers and police who committed such crimes, the punishment was execution.
The same can't be said for Serbian Orthodox rapists, who were hailed as heroes.

All of this information can be readily verified through the War Crimes Commission.

Abdur

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

Yes, as many are guilty in the Balkans.

And what of the Latin popes who sent armies to slaughter Muslims in Jeruslam - the difference is, it is a teaching in your faith and of your Prophet to murder, kill, mutilate, stone, amputate, lie, and hate whereas in Christianity it is a heresy.

Your Prophet taught to stone, our Lord Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

And take a gander at this...
http://emperors-clothes.com/index.html

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Orthodox,

If a person is literal minded, then reading the Quran (and the Old Testament) can be a "sanguine" experience.

But religions have a funny habit of modifying themselves as the centuries pass and exchanging one set of priorities and one set of practices for others. That phenomenon also applies to Islam as it does to Judaism, for example.

Contrary to public belief the vast majority of Muslims and Muslim nations, just like the Jews relative to certain bloody practices recorded in the Torah and even commanded or condoned by the OT prophets, do not practice the bloody traditions that you describe and that are almost 1400 yrs. old.

God bless,

Abdur

Abdur,
Christ our God be upon you,

Granted that the essence of Allah is indivisable. That's great we have overcome this hurdle. Your referred to Allah's 99 Names which we also accept are the uncreated divine energies. It is these very divine energies that radiate from the hidden essence or nature of Allah. The energies of Allah, such as grace(rahmat-Allah), are not created, and allow the believer to enter into a personal relationship with Allah while preserving the unique character of Allah, whose essence remains hidden from al-Bashaar(the people who have received glad tidings).
What happens when Allah decides to offer unto us Himself to be born of the Blessed Virgin? What do you think happens to the human flesh when Allah has blessed it by what we call sanctification or deification? Do we not recognize the existence & human development of a Person by the name of Jesus? Allah's existence did not cease for one moment when He chose the blessed womb of the Virgin. The invisible Allah became the visible Allah in the flesh taken from the Blessed Virgin Mary. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation(Colossians 1:15)". Imagine the image of God presented to us which is cloaked in the flesh and yet controls the universe! Jesus was not merely a man as false religions teach. Jesus is Allah Incarnate. I certainly know that Islamic theology is weak and dares not speak this language which would bring upon itself ruins. We Christians refer to the Trinity as Three Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. A clear revelation given to us and ample evidence disclosed in the Quran. Three Persons in One Essence and undivided. Three individual existences yet mysteriously of One Essence. If you disagree then please explain to me the relation of Allah in reference to the Uncreated Word, the Quran? Or Allah in relation to His Uncreated Spirit? Are there three gods or One God in Three Persons? Please explain the individual existences of the Uncreated Word and Uncreated Spirit and that of Allah? Unfortunately, Islam in general rejects these revealed truths and lives in a bubble. I believe this Islamic bubble will burst one day and bring great joy to Muslims who accept the revelation of Allah in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

Trivial time: Do you know that out of the 99 Names of Allah according to Islam not one is named Savior (mokhalis)? This is the very Name & meaning of Jesus! It is no surprise that the Islamic Jesus ('Isa) has no meaning in the Arabic language since it was arabized from the Greek language. You ought it to yourself to use Jesus' real Arabic, semitic name (Yasou') which means Savior! If you like Greek call Him Isoos!

I highly suggest the readings of the Church Fathers such as Dionysius the Areopagite and St. Gregory Palamas. Perhaps a course on apophatic and catophatic theology might be instructive.

The Spread of Islam: a Muslim perspective.


www.mideasti.org/library/islam/introislam.htm [mideasti.org]

The problem with any discussion about Islam on this site is that so many of us are Sons of the Levant and our memories are long. We see the Arab conquest of the Middle East, N. Africa and Central Asia through the eyes of a crime victim. In the Arab world they see the West as the source of the Crusades that invaded their lands. We Eastern Christians see the Christian Crusades as a belated response to the invasion of the Middle East and N. Africa by the Moslem crusaders and Colonists. Even the term Arab as commonly used here in the US means any of the Moslem People of the Middle East, N. Africa, Central Africa and even into Afghanistan and Pakistan as Arabs. Guilt is a funny thing with so many of us here sharing blood with Moslems we are angry at our own kind. There is a hugh religious devide between Christianity and Islam. I see us as the original Native Peoples of the Middle East and N. Africa and we were displaced in the first great halocaust of Ethnic cleansing. Our memories are long and unlike White America see know the truth about the spread of Islam. The PC Press and PC Scholars avoid issues that would embarese minorities. Even the Armenian Genocide is denied by some as uncomfortable fact. That genocide is one that is part of a pattern of behavior towards the Miffle East's native peoples that have suffered under Islam.