www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Ecumenism, Diversity, and Political Correctness

Angelus,

Certainly the truth is often painful.

However, the truth is that millions of "the people of the Levant" accepted Islam willingly and even embraced the Arab colonists and invaders as liberators. The Copts are an example. In the Balkans, the Albanians and Bosnian Christians (Bogomils) were suffering under intolerable social conditions that were soon remedied by the Turks (see Serge's web site and an article by a non-Muslim which describes the truth of the spread of Islam. )

My point is that those of us who are non-Arab Muslims of the Levant and the Balkans are the descendents of Christians who willingly accepted Islam and accepted it with gusto.

We must be included in your formula, i.e., we are part of the chemistry of our common history as are the Pomaks, Bulgarian Muslims, Pontic Greek Muslims, Cypriot "Romani" Muslims, and other small Muslim groups whose ancestors were Christian.

Like you said, hiding from the truth will not make it go away. And describing the Muslim ascendency as "genocide" is an historical error since too many Christians embraced Islam willingly in the subsequent centuries. There was just no mass slaughter of Christians---it never happened. Certainly the Jews embraced the presence of Islam since they were no longer forced to live under Byzantine oppression and were allowed to return to Jerusalem. (The Byzantine authorities had banned them.) Also, the lesser Orthodox communities also embraced the Muslims as liberators from Byzantine oppression and even collaborated with Muslims as they advanced across the Byzantine Empire.

Another interesting fact is that many Christians served in high positions of authority as the Arab Muslims consolidated their power and lands and began the hard work of administering their "kingdom." Have you forgotten that many of Saladin's generals were Coptic Christians and that they planned and executed the military destruction of the Crusaders? Have you forgotten that the Visigothic Christian nobility of Spain quickly converted to Islam after the Berber/Arab invasion? Have you forgotten that many Spanish Christians converted to Islam?

The point is that sometimes we take a very simplistic look at history which provides us all too often with a truncated and biased perspective that is not historically correct. And yes, Muslims do the same.

God bless,

Abdur

PS-After the 4th century, Orthodox Christianity was also spread by the sword. That is a topic for another day.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur the Blessings of God on you and all men:

You are correct that many people embraced Islam and converted. But it is obvious that you have not read Bat Ye'or's books nor any of the other modern historians that have examined this issue in the last ten years. Islam was no more or less than a vampire culture that lived off the corpse of Eastern Christianity and the Jews. As the number of Dhimmi declined Islam went into a period of stagnation from which it never recovered. Think of a vampire draining his victim. The phyric victory of Byzantium over Persia set the stage for the entrance of Islam. If Islam had not followed plague and famine into the two weakened Empires following such a devastating war it would have died on the vine. You are also correct that Christianity came into power through Constantine and his Army of Christian soldiers.

As the number of subject Dhimmi declined they were aided and protected the some Sultans who realized that the Moslems were not sowers of grain nor workers but parasites on the body of the Dhimmi. Rather than quote outworn pleastantries about Islam being invited into Egypt look at the original historical documents or modern sources. I go not think that the Vopts wanted to die under the heel of a cruel cult. The Arab Crusaders and Colonists followed the same pattern of Ethnic Cleansing that is today being used in the Sudan by Moslems. Yes the Bogomils converted and became the zapaia or catchers, the Turkish Military Police force in the Balkans. Bosnian Moslems later joined the dreaded German Nazi SS Hanshar Division. A move that was very Islamic. The Nazi's even gave credit for thier genocide to the Moslems that had invented it.

Name the sources that are modern examinations into Islams kindly conquest and I shall read them. Use Internationaly recognised sources and not some obscure Moslem tome. Please convince me as I am open to a change of mind but I think that will not be possible as the truth may shock you.

I have noticed that you avoid answering those unfortunate things that I or the others bring up. A sufi would study what we say and correct us if we are wrong or join with us in our ideas. The things quoted above about Mohammed are true. Today he would be considered a career criminal and locked away for the safety of society.


The blood of Christ changes the world..

Angelus,

You are correct in stating that some Bosnian Muslims served in SS divisions during WWII; right along side with Ustashi Croat Catholic SS divisions and even some Chetniks who played hide-n-sneek with both sides.

However, credit must go to those Bosnians, Croats, and Serbs who also supported the anti-fascist forces.

I recommended a short article on Serge's web site written by a non-Muslim which is about the spread of Islam. It isn't an "obscure Moslem tome." Have you had a chance to read it? I would be interested in your critique.

God bless,

Abdur

Angelus,

If you believe that Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) is "a career criminal," so be it.

However, your position makes all Muslims co-conspirators in crime, including Sufis. (We are Muslims, you know.)

At least five times per day, Sufi Muslims pray,

"God is the Most Great

I bear witness that there are not gods but GOD

I bear witness that Muhammed is the Messenger of GOD... ."

I think you should revise your position on what a Sufi is and what Sufis believe. You are in error if you believe we have the contempt for Muhammed that you (honestly) profess.

If Muhammed is "a career criminal" then Sufis are his cell mates.

'GOD called the Prophet Muhammed Muzzammil,
'The One Who Wraps Himself,'
and said,
"Come out from under your cloak, you so fond of hiding and running away,
Don't cover your face.

The world is a reeling, drunken body, and you are its intelligent head.

Don't hide the the candle of your clarity. Stand up and burn through the night, my prince.

Without your light a great lion is held captive by a rabbit."

Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi.

Beloved Poet, Sufi Shaikh, and "cell-mate of the arch-criminal, Prophet Muhammed."

Now do you understand what a Sufi truly is?

Good health and a good life.

Shukran,

Abdur

The Byzantine Forum is a bit of a hornet's nest for Muslims and I think it is time for me to return to my own people . I think the Pope might be wrong and the posters here are more realistic: I am not optimistic about Christian-Muslim dialogue . Such is reality. You are a rational person, so you can sympathize with the fact that Islam is my religion and the religion of my family and to see it denigrated is a bit much for me to accept. I am beginning to believe that the more apocalyptic prognosticators of the future might well be right. Whatever God wills is my will. Glory to God.

To your point:

The answer to your question is very simple. According to Islamic belief uncreated energies are divine, or contain divinity, but they are not The Divinity. In other words, they are manifestations of the Essence (God), but they are not the Essence, which is not subject to multiplicity

The Holy Quran (for example) is uncreated but it is not The Uncreated One. Uncreated energies manifest
Essence but they cannot be Essence since they are subject to limitations, or they are expressions of God's self-limiting powers, but they can never be The Power or The Essence,i.e., God. Uncreated energies must be understood as having being that is purely subordinant to The Essence (God).

Take care and good health.

Abdur

Wow!

Aristotle in full regalia!

Distinction between the essence and the manifestations of Divinity.

This may be all well and good in terms of 'theology'. But, my own major concern is how is it possible that a faith community can interpret its faith to allow individual members to either hurt or destroy any other individual whose life must necessarily come from God/Allah/Thor/Buddha/Jupiter/Zeus. If all life comes from God (and the above), then how is it possible that the destruction of God's creation can be justified.

This is my main concern about Mohammedans. And why I'll never 'trust' them when I'm among them.

I'm not afraid of "Lutheran Terrorists" or "Bomb Throwing Quakers" or "Suicidal Buddhists" or "Homicidal Hindus". But the term "Islamic Terrorists" was not just a 'made-up' term. It comes from international human experience. And anyone who is not the village idiot must absolutely be made aware of this reality and also made aware of ways to contravene it.

One can cloak one's theology in images of God, of Abraham, or whatever. But the truth must lie in how one lives. Whether Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or even atheist, God's revealed truth is: love God and love one's neighbor. THIS is the touchstone. If one fulfills this command and precept, then one is going to be pleasing to God and one can earn one's salvation. My Moslem neighbors who helped out after the Pentagon disaster have earned their laurels because they showed love of neighbor. Same for the Christians and the Jews and Hindus and Atheists etc.

It ain't the label. Nor the 'denomination'. Nor the ethnicity. It's the love of God and love of one's neighbor. For Christians: Case closed!

Blessings!

Well...maybe Muslims are the new Catholic Crusaders and Inquisitioners of the 21st century---terrorists all.

I have consistently admitted to the errors and even evils of Muslims and have even admitted that Islam is in need of reform---I never hid that fact---not once.

I certainly can sympathize with your fear of Muslims. I feel the same for Croat Catholics ( who have a long association with Hitlerism) and Serb Orthodox, who have refined the "rape"to be an art---good Christians all, in my book. It certainly is not
a mystery why so many leaders of Hitlerism had a Roman Catholic background and why most of the states that had Hitlerite collaborationist
regimes were Roman Catholic states. It is all recorded in the history books---the same ones you will find in the libraries of Catholic universities.Most of the foreign SS volunteers that served in the Hitlerite concentration camps were Roman Catholics. Even Hilter bragged that that the discriminatory laws that were instituted against the Jews were those that originated with the Catholic Church. Your church saved Hilter a great deal of time and effort.I can also sympathize with the Greeks who were the victims of Roman Catholic pillage, rape, and every foul evil conceivable by a people known for butchery and infanticide, just like their nemesis, the "Muslim hordes."

You are right---talk is cheap and only actions have substance. All pettifogging aside--you can always claim that Jesus did not "teach us" to commit these heinous crimes (tell that to your victims)--you can't hide behind the Messiah because your Church shall also be judged by her deeds and many of those cannot stand the light of day.

For the sake of our children, those Muslims who have been the victims of your murderous and barbaric ways are also keeping a keen eye on you.

You must also earn our respect. We are not subhuman dogs that Catholics have the right to slaughter in "the name of God and the True Faith." You certainly hate us and there is no bounds to your denigration of those who follow a different pathway to God and have spent a lifetime, not talking about love on message boards, but in actual service to those in need. Of that fact we must inform our children and let them observe that the Jesus of the Bible is not, and never has been, the faux Jesus--- God of War---of the Catholic Church.

If you must continue to delude yourselves, I suggest you burn all libraries and certainly all history books for in them you will find your murderous ways ever recorded.

BTW: Tell the English and the Northern Ireland Loyalists that they have nothing to fear from Catholic terrorists and they will laugh in your face. And forget the lame excuse that the terrorists were not "true Catholics." Why not? The Catholic Church practiced terrorism for centuries, including assasinations of free thinkers and other reformers. I've read books straight from the shelves of Catholic universities, and written by Catholic historians, that record acts of terrorism that were the brain child of your fellow Jesuits. These are facts that neurotics might try their best to deny---like all good neurotics do---but facts are just so stubborn, they just won't go away. We Muslims are well aware of that fact when we survey the history of our own religion.

Yes...for the sake of our children we will also keep an eye on you. And we will also make sure that people like you do not violate our constitutional rights.

Those of us who were born in America are just as American as all other native- born Americans. And for the sake of one uncle who gave his life in military service for this country and another uncle who gave his leg in military service for his country, I certainly will keep a close eye on those who would treat us like second-class citizens and pariahs.

Many of us American Muslims have served this country---and served her well---and we will not allow psychological terrorists violate our children's peace of mind by the fear the sting of stigmatization.

We have nothing---I said nothing---to prove to the likes of people like you.

Abdur Islamovic

United States Coast Guard, retired.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,
Christ our Lord & Savior be upon you,

There is too much rambling about killings. I thougth we could constructively discuss the issues that separate our theologies from one another. No one seems to be free from sin which our fallen world exists in. There has never been a perfect human being with exception of Jesus Christ. I believe that the true path is following Christ who did not wage the sword. Of course many Christians and non-Christians have chosen not to follow Christ, the path to eternal peace. Free will is a reality. It is controllably denied in Islamic nations and governments in regards to freedom of religion. A Muslim living in an Islamic nation that decides not to be Muslim is persecuted. A Muslim in the U.S. can have the option of remaining Muslim or accepting Christ as Lord & Savior without any persecution(it might likely come from the local Muslims & abroad).
This talk of who has done more damage towards another people is a fruitless dialogue. I believe everyone can agree that any form of agression should be rejected.
The topic of agression has at times had religious support throughtout history. The Roman Catholic Church has recently confessed her sins to the world. However, there is no one spokesman to confess for the sins of Islam. The problem is that there is no such hiearchy. Hiearchies are created & controlled by Islamic governments. There is no caliphate in existence and I certainly do not ever see it coming back. Only the powerful has the ability to wage an Islamic jihad. The ones with the capital like the Saudis & Osama bin Ladens of the world or militant factions of Afghanistan. Worse yet are Islamic militant groups in Egypt, North Africa, Indonesia, pakistan, Iran, Palestine, Philipines, etc. Everyone of them has declared a jihad to claim territories for Islam and the establishment of an Islamic government ruled by the Sharia' once under submission.
The Quran and the hadiths support the belief of Jihad. In fact, it is the Sixth hidden Pillar of Islam. Muslims have freely interpreted and applied jihad as it fits their causes. Try telling & stoping the KLA terrorists, Hizbollah, or those in the Philipines by denouncing their jihad. There is no control mechanism as to who wages jihad.
Islam believes in "eye for an eye" whereas true Christianity does not. Unfortunately, many Christians decide not to follow & to obey Christ and His Church. They have committed heinious crimes recorded in history which Christ would reject.
The Injeel (New Testament) is replete of Christ's love for humanity. Christ's love has far exceeded any human comprehension of divine love. As one reads the New Testament and following the ministry of Christ one cannot deny the eternal truths He spoke & lived by. On the Cross, He said "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do." This is the most powerful statement anyone can read. But how many can utter such an utterance and live the life in Christ? Muhammed did not ever follow in the footsteps of Christ. He certainly would have been a great Arabian saint if he did. However he fought in numerous wars and raided caravans. At times he had compassion towards those who despised him but not Abu Lahab as recorded in the Surat Lahab. Lahab was his uncle. Muhammed hated with a passion his uncle and his wife because they stood against him. What about the decapitating of 600 male Jews? Where is the forgiveness and compassion of Muhammed? I could not imagine Christ speaking of burning people in fire and hanging them or decapitating them(the practice of the Saudis).
In fact, Judas betrayed Jesus to the Romans & the Jews. Jesus did not instruct Judas to go hang himself. Jesus was arrested and beaten nearly to death until He was crucified on the Cross. Did Christ retaliate or command the destruction of the world? No. Jesus was abandoned by His apostles because they feared for their selfish lives. Later they repented and were forgiven by Christ.
Christ did not teach revenge or to avenge those who wrong us. If we live the life in Christ the truth will set us free from the Evil One. The person of Muhammed cannot ever do that since he was a human of animal agressions like all of us are at times.

Agressive acts committed by Christians and Muslims is another topic for another thread. Many Christians follow the ways of Muhammed when they are not living in Christ. That is the major problem for Christianity. They live according to the sways of the world as Muhammed did in his days. They certainly may not believe in Islam but they can share the common barbarity of the world overrun by the Devil(Shaitan).

Believe in the name of Jesus(Yasou') which means savior or God saves and you will be saved. I encourage you to study the name of Jesus and to read the Injeel. Always get both sides of the stories before making any judgment. I personally studied Islam before I studied Orthodox Christianity. I was blown away by what I researched and discovered to be the ultimate truth in Christ Jesus. Pray that Allah may guide you to the straight(ortho) path in your life's journey.

Salam alika Bism Yasou al-Maseeh al-Moukhalis

Hi, it is very interesting reading all the different viewpoints people have on the subject of ecumenism. I'm new here, so I'm just going to dive on in, I guess. Where am I in all this? I will celebrate my first anniversary as a Greek Orthodox Christian Jan. 19, Theophany. Before I became Orthodox, I was first Lutheran, and became Roman Catholic at age 17. I fear that the ecumenical movement is like a rattlesnake, if we get too close, we're bitten. I never liked it as a Catholic, and I certainly don't like it now. When I was involved several years ago in a charismatic group made up of mostly protestants, we prayed together and such, but I just could not relate to them. They talked about "baptism in the holy spirit," being "saved," etc, which wasn't of interest to me. I knew that I would never be allowed to speak about my love for the Mother of God, or my belief that CHrist is present in the Eucharist, and that we should be adoring Christ in front of the tabernacle instead of dancing around in the library basement speaking in tongues. I am firmly against joining in prayer with non-Orthodox, and I wouldn't see the point in attending a non-Orthodox church unless for a funeral or wedding. As far as I'm concerned, people should be less interested in ecumenism and more interested in conversion. We can get together with Unitarians, Presbyterians and Hindus and talk until we're blue in the face, it's of no use. And to worship with them implies a false unity. What is needed is for them to be shown the truth, and for them to respond to the truth.

Wishing all a Happy New Year!

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!

Rum,

The Lord Himself has shown through your words throughout this thread. I praise God for what He has led you to write.

Dan Lauffer

Robert,

I know that you are sincere but I must say that the internet is a treasure trove of information on Christian terrorism and violence. In fact, I must say that I believe that the history of Christianity proves that it is the most violent religion on earth.

The Christian appetite for blood, that of both Christians and non-Christians seems to be insatiable. The facts are Christians have spent more time spreading violence through this world than spreading the Gospel.

Do you remember the slaughter of men, women, and children at the Palestinian refugee camps of Shatilla...sorry, I can't remember the name of the other camp..by the Maronite Catholics terrorists? It seems to me that this diabolical act should be remembered by all non-Christians as an iconic event----a representation of the grotesque violence that pervades Christian history. Afterall, for the most part, Christianity was not spread by holy missionaries but by violence and slaughter. And Christians are hypocritical enough to accuse Islam of being a religion spread by the sword. What is that about "removing the beam from your own eye, etc... ."

The time I have spent here has forced me to evaluate both Islam and Christianity. I am well aware of the faults of Islam and I am becoming more aware of the faults and defects within Christianity. But, I must say, that after studying the internal and external history of Christianity, I find no attraction for it. I would be replacing one inferior religion for another. And in the back of my head there is the lingering thought that perhaps Christianity has a long history of terrorism and violence because the Jesus they worship is not the "Son of God" but the "Son of Shatain."

Sorry, but I can't help wondering.

I love my people more than I can ever love your blood-drenched impostor of a Savior/Messiah. May Allah protect us from the evil deceiver and master of violence, the Jesus of the Christians.

Now: I must be about the business of praying for those thousands of young and innocent Bosnian Muslim women raped by your fellow Christians and pray for those Bosnian Muslim babies whose throats were slit by disciples of the Christian Jesus a/k/a the "Son of Satan."

Abdur Islamovic

Muslim

Abdur,
Sorry for taking so long to address this.

The Pope kissed the Qu'ran out of respect for those he was meeting with. We can respect someone even if we do not believe what they believe.

I am sure the Pope adheres to Catholic Teaching, which is expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

We can see what this has to say. Paragraphs 66 and 67 would fit here as Islam came after the time of Christ.

The section is titled, There will be no further Revelation.

66. "'The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.'[DV 4; cf. 1 Tim 6:14 ; Titus 2:13 .] Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries."

67. "Throughout the ages, there have been so-called 'private' revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept 'revelations' that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfilment, as is the case in certain nonChristian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such 'revelations'."

So at best, you could argue that Islam is a private revelation, but if this is so, then we do not have to believe in it for our salvation.


David

AND WHERE IS THE LOVE OF GOD AND NEIGHBOR IN ALL OF THIS?

Triumphalism and Hatred is triumphalism and hatred no matter by whom it is uttered. Why do we push buttons and claim that it is an act of Love?

In my humble opinion, too much hatred has entered the forum through this thread. Too much disrespect has entered this forum through this thread!

In the Name of Jesus, whom we Christians worship as the Son of God and the Son of Mary and whom Islam venerates as a prophet who will judge and not as the son of satan, PLEASE model the sacrificial love for eachother that Jesus did!

By our love here cannot we make this cyberplace an icon of the Love that God has for each of us?

Fraternally,
Steve

JOY!

The blessing of God on all men:

Abdur yes give me the address for that site and I will go and read the article. Thank you for a new source.

Moslems are the new Catholic Crsuaders and Inquisition? I think not you give to much credit to the Catholic Crusaders and the Santa Urmandad (Spanish Inquisition). Yes the Crusaders did kill thier fellow Christians as they could not tell the difference between a Moslem or a Christian and murder of anyone is always evil. But how many people did the Crusaders kill? If read that those wars resulted in 300,000 deaths total. As for the Inquisition I have read that a modern analysis of thier records show that they murdered 3,000 people over the entire term of that evil institution in thre or four hundred years. It was run and managed by Lawyers so records were kept of everything they did. Now I think that the murder of 3,000 is evil but to compare it to Islam's murder of 300 million Native People by Moslem Crusaders and Islamic Colonists is not a fair comparison. Islam did a much better job in this case than the West was possible of doing. Now the Black Lie about the cruelty of the inquisition was a wonderful propaganda move by fellow Christians (English) and the object of wonderous fantasy by novelists and story tellers.

Yes I have read bout the fools in the Croat Fascist movement and they were evil. As to the religion of the SS foreign volunteers I have never seen that claimm before and can you provide a citation for it. Hitler was born a Catholic but he gace up that religion to be a pagan. Since so many Catholic priests and nuns died in Hitler's Consentration Camps it appears he had no love for Catholics.

I see the Sufi as the people that corrupted Mohammeds Islam and drew it more towards a viable religion. Allah was the god of the Moon and he was married to his two daughters the Moon Goddesses and this truth was told by Mohammed. It is the reason that Salman Rushdie is so hated as he exposed the pagan root of Islam and the Lebanse Christians see Allah as Satan. Mohammed's Koran was not written by him but by his secretary. There were three differnt Korans floating around at one time. Islam is the case of a religion where it's followers are good people and the relgion is not.

Jihad for the Sufi is the challenge of one's self for betterment but for Islam it is the Holy War of conquest. Islam can not allow religious freedom as it can not compete with the worlds other great religions. Jihad is still the law of Islam as are the rules noted above for raping and killing non-Moslems.

Bless you Abdur it must be hard as there are so many Greeks and Men of the Levant here. But you must understand we are all that is left of the original Native People of the Levant. A slave can not but help to hate his master and escape his slavery and we are all decended from Dhimmi. If Christianity were the weaker party; Islam would use nuclear bombs and biowar to murder us all or convert us. If we adopt your methods it would be the literal end of Islam. The West has foolishly allowed Moslems immirgrants into our lands. We can have people from all over the world but we can never trust a people that seeks to destroy us as thier religous goal. You are as much an American as I am. I trust American Moslems that were born and raised here. It is terrorists I hate not people.

Mohammed was such a flawed man and a career criminal in his actions. His conduct was horrible and I am sure that one man did more harm by his own hand than the whole Spanish Inquisition! I was an Officer of the Law for decades and so when you talk about any criminal I have a view that arises from my career there.

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Angelus ]

Blood!

The world is and has been awash in the blood of innocents. Does it really matter whether it flows from the veins and arteries of Christians or Moslems or Hindus. Does it really matter whether it flows from the actions of Christians or of Moslems or of Jews or of Hindus or of Non-Believers. Do the innocent dead care whether their innocent blood was shed by Crusaders, by byzantines, by Nazis, by Communitsts, by Imperial Russia or by the United States?

It is time my brothers of East and West, of North and South, of Levant and Rome to obey the command of Love. It is time to stop talking as thouogh history's abuses or those that are happening now excuse our reaching for our weapons to murder innocents! It is time to stop hiding behind religion to conceal our intolerance and our ignorance and our prejudices!

You and I here in this space are not on the front lines! We are here on a site sponsored by those who worship the Prince of Peace; yet, we speak bashing those with whom we disagree and present it as dismay. We speak bashing the religious figures that others hold dear in order to justify our own inability to make subtle distinctions and allow for the reality of sin. We justify it from our perception that others have done greater evils than the evils that we do.

We are sinners my brothers!

We personally do evil, my brothers! We are doing it here!

We cannot see the splinter in our brother's eye for the beam in our own eyes!

We come here to do apologetics! We come here to beat our brother verbally. We belittle and are belittled in turn. We enhance our own image by pointing out the evil done by those who are different from us!

Is it not yet time for us all to join the publican at the temple gate and simply say, Lord have mercy on me a sinner.

Perhaps that prayer, that humility, that self awareness of our common need for God's mercy can be the start of a real dialogue among sinners who look together to see if we can find God looking for His lost sheep.

We are they! He is seeking us! He is loving us without looking to see if we are Christian, Moslem, Jewish, Budhist, or non believer! With our eyes and hearts and ears turned to Him, perhaps we can leave the blood behind and ask Him to wash from our bloody finger tips the evil that we have done in this thread!

Lord, have mercy on me a sinner!

Fraternally,

Steve
Seeking for the Joy here!

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]