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If Islam gives up it's Doctorine of Jihad, desire for world conquest and rel;igious doctorine that we must be conqured, Treatment of Dhimmi, Concept that the West is the World of War so we are kaffirs to kill or convert and no crime is committed by giving us injury, seeing genocide and ethnic cleansing acceptable means to deal with non-Moslams, stop the genocide in the Sudan, give up slavery and end it's Treatment of women and children as goods rather than people I could live with that.

I think that Islam should pay reparations to all it has injured. The West could pay counter reparations for any ill we had done.

I know that some Muslims in this country have strongly denounced the terrorist activity that so many are fomenting around the world. I don't know why that hasn't been more but at least there has been some. Is there a source where these positions of denunciation for terrorism by Muslims have been collected?

I think the lack of a strong force against the actions in Sudan, Afghanistan, etc. may be due to the lack of any strong religious authority in Islam. I know that Abdur has said that Islam has grown "past a hierarchy", but perhaps they have not so much grown past it as they have sadly lost it.

Be that as it may, is there an Islamic source, either in print or on the internet, that clearly and forcefully critiques terrorism, murder, and slavery that is being committed by Muslim individuals and states?

Dan Lauffer

A bit eccentric but......

www.mosque.com [mosque.com]

or www.muslimresource.com [muslimresource.com]


BTW: Sudanese Muslims also buy slaves for the Christians and return them to their Christian communities, at great peril to their lives. That is a fact you never read about in the media. I wonder why? ( a rhetorical question.)

A former Sudanase Army General ( a Muslim ) has defected from the central gov't and is active in the Southern Sudanese (Christian and animist) Liberation Movement.

He often encourages American Muslims to not defile our religion by cooperating with cruelty.

No matter what anyone else tells you, the Islamic world is very diverse and there is no one way to follow Islam. The only concrete (yet spiritual) practice and belief that is required of every Muslim to be a Muslim is our confession of faith. The rest is commentary---that is a very ancient tradition. And you can take your dinars to the bank with that factoid.

Abdur

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

Thank you very much. I will shortly look into those.

What you say about the statement of faith is true enough. It is also true that there are some examples today which are difficult to understand of Christian atrocities.

It is rare that any Christian outside No. Ireland, and a minority within, which would call the IRA or it's protestant counterpart, good examples of Christians. The Balkan situation is a bit more complex than you indicate but I will concede that there were atrocities on both/all sides. Again, I don't know anyone in authority in Christendom who would stand behind those actions.

Yet, all peace loving peoples of the world are awaiting word of Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or even America that condemns the terrorists as non-Muslim. I know, I know, there are no standards. Yet, shouldn't there be?

I'm glad to see that some Muslims are risking their lives to save some Sudanese.

The slaughter has been going on for quite some time. I suspect that prayer is all we can do? Or is that all?

No matter what anyone else tells you, the Islamic world is very diverse and there is no one way to follow Islam. The only concrete (yet spiritual) practice and belief that is required of every Muslim to be a Muslim is our confession of faith. The rest is commentary---that is a very ancient tradition. And you can take your dinars to the bank with that factoid.

Dan Lauffer

PS. I just looked at the sites. These are most encouraging. While I don't agree with Islam's claims I will respect all peace loving people. May the Christ who died and arose bring you to Himself.

[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

Yes, we can pray. Prayer is the best medicine for what ails us, in my opinion.

Many Christians have been good to us and they support us, which is particularly good for our children, who feel a bit like "criminals" or stereotyped, if you will. But we have had members of the Hungarian Reformed/UCC parish help us to clean the graffitti from our masjid and even serve as security on Friday (which is our sabbath). We are so grateful and it is good for our children to know that we have a great deal of support from our fellow Americans and that the majority of American Christians do not believe we are all fanatical terrorists.

Pragmatically speaking, I do not believe our relationships with Catholics and Orthodox can be as cordial as they are with liberal protestants, because of the strong theological and dogmatic differences, as well as for historical reasons. But on the other hand, I know we can continue to cooperate with Catholics on the issues of family and abortion. I do not believe there is a Christian community that we share so much in common with on those extremely critical issues than Catholics.

We appreciate the help and kindness of our Christian neighbors. They help us to experience the joy of our faith and how can you ever repay a friend for joy?

God bless,

Abdur

Arab states condemn terrorist attacks of 9/11.

www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0%2C1690%2C70252%2C00.html [arabia.com]

Grand Sheikh calls for punishment of 9/11 terrorists.

www.middleeastwire.com/islam/stories/20010917_6_meno.shtml [middleeastwire.com]

By the way Dan, the Islamic world, from nations great and small, has (with very few exceptions) condemned both the acts of the 9/11 terrorists and the Taliban (now defunct) regime as non-Islamic and has denounced the whole group of thugs and bandits as ( to use your expression) non-Muslims. To us they are apostates, but in highly secularized America few people understand that expression.

Ironically, it is the press that keeps refering to the bandits as "Muslim terrorists." Our query is, why aren't IRA terrorists, or Prot' militiamen in Ireland referred to as "Christian terrorists," or `the members of right-wing Catholic splinter militias in South America referred to
as "Catholic terrorists" or even Hindu Tamal terrorists in Sri Lanka (now there is a bloody group for you!) referred to as "Hindu terrorists"? In other words, why the double standard?

We are working hard to correct this injustice, which is our right as American citizens and Muslims.

May Allah forgive us our sins against His majesty and mercy, His Prophets, and all the faithful of the religions of our common father Abraham.

See: We are not savages, but human just like you.

www.mpfweb.org/200110_5ways.html [mpfweb.org]

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur you have my respect for just coming to this forum. I use to visit a forum for Armenians, Greeks and Turks and being the odd Greek out was nasty. Also being a Catholic in a form held by Orthodox and Moslems. The one thing they could all unite around was bash the Catholic. My Greek brothers made it clear that Byzantines from Constantinople were not welcome and not really Greek. There seemed to evolve a group of Moslems and Christians that were more liberal and tended to stick together and I found kindered souls online. I quite going there as my blood pressure gave me headachs.

I am aware that there are many good Moslems that are men of faith and honor. I have meet such here and in Overseas. Among us the men of the Levant history never seems to die and I am a very poor Christian as I do not seem to have much forgiveness in me at times.

To answer your question I think the reason the press labels some terrorists as Moslem is due to the fact that when Christians do terror as in N. Ireland we are in conflict with our own faith and outside the moral teachings of our Church. I can not speak for the other ethnic groups but think it is the same for them, that teror is outside their faiths. In Europe the Catholics suffered death & great discrimination at the hands of their fellow Christians. In the Protestant Reformation; Catholic peasants were murdered wholesale by the rich and powerful nobles in the persuit of power. Even the great witch trials and witch hunts seemed to zero in on hidden Catholics and hundreds of thousands of Catholics were murdered each year.

I see the victims of Osama bin Laden as not just the the people that died on 9-11 but also the Afghans that suffered under a harsh rule. Having Afghan friends I was aware that the American effort after 9-11 would be seen as liberation and not invasion. I hope the US and the world stay in Afghanistan and aide the rebuilding of a land destroyed by war.

I think that all the Men of the Levant share blood. I know that you are an American-Bosnian Slav and I am sure that we share common blood. Like you I am an American first and last. I swore my oath to the USA and have never broken it. Here we are one big family but our idea's are set in stone at times. Please forgive us as we do not hate you or Moslems but we have an historic view of Islam at odds with yours. For your family Islam was a liberating thing and not so for us.

Happy New Years to all and God bless you all.

May we all pray to end the slave trade in Africa, but also Europe,especially Eastern Europe?

www.ekathimerini.com/news/content.asp?aid=112573 [ekathimerini.com]

Angelus,

All of us who have violated our respective codes of honor by making statements in haste that have brought calumny upon our respective faiths and our personal character.

It seems to me that Inawe's intercessions have cleared the air for a higher and more dignified level of discussion about issues we can all agree upon. But please, may all of us avoid the historical and theological issues that bring out the worst in us. God cannot be pleased.

You might want to engage with both Muslims and non-Muslims at:

www.paknews.com/bbs.html [paknews.com]

Healthy and Happy New Year!

Abdur

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur thank you for the sites. I like the Greek Newspaper alot. I recently retired from Law Enforcement so I am very aware of the evil of the International Slavery for the Women from Eastern Europe. You are 110% percent correct that my Greek brothers as well as my Italian brothers are in the slave trade. I am ashamed that they do these things.

Even the legal movement of women across borders with all the mailorder brides has an element of shame. Many Thai and Asian women are tricked into coming here to the US and bought and sold by pimps for the prostituion slave trade right here. Also pimps gather runaway girls from all over the US and Canada to lure girls into slavery with drugs and promises of marriage here in the US. Whereever there is poverty as in Eastern Europe, Asia, Middle East, Latin America and Africa there are women tricked into sexual slavery. I recently saw on TV that children are sold in West Africa for $15 US. This is a subject everyone here can agree on. This violation of womanhood is by evil men and this trade in human beings is an insult to all men.

I regret to say that slaves work in the sex industry in every American City and nearly every town. Even the mailorder brides that come here for lonely American's are in many cases abused or sold to pimps. It is legal but not moral.

Yes I know that I sometimes use the skills I learned so long ago with the Sufi in ways that I sometimes regret. The Greek side of me learned the tricks of debate as a small child as I listened to my father and uncles debate issues. You know that word Sufi may come from the Greek word for wisdom, Sofia or maybe from the lamb skin they sit on.

Angelus your friend
God bless all men

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: Angelus ]

Christ our God in the flesh be upon you,

Abdur,
Let me provide you with facts rather than the distortions you posted. Christians and non-Christians are equal sinners. Non-Christians are not immune. What makes you think that the Muslims have been immune from declaring jihads? Islamic violence comes in various guises mainly in discrimination against non-Muslims. The life of the non-Muslims under Islamic governance has been tolerated under the auspices of dispisement. The Muslim appetite is more or less than non-practicing Christian appetite for blood.

Abdur your stated view that Christianity is the most violent religion on the earth is ludicrous. Is this from the latest polls taken on Islam?! The history of Christianity has been a struggle and often not a clean one. The challenges have been that of implementing the Gospel in a fallen world that abides in the power of darkness. However, that does not in fact change what the Christian faith is all about and why it has survived to this day.
You posting that Christians have spent more time spreading violence versus the Gospel is an inspiration of Shaitan. I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion which is Satanically inspired. The only conclusion I can draw is based on ignorance and selecting bits & pieces of history to substaniate your claim to denigrate the Christian faith. If you would only study & learn the Christian faith and incorporate the very principles that are to guide our lives in Christ then you would not measure the Faith to that of fallen humanity. Try learning & living the Christian Faith rather than denigrating it. You certainly have not studied the internals & externals of Orthodox Christianity or for that matter West Christianity.

You asked me about the slaughter of the Palestinian (all if not most innocent Muslims)refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla by the terrorist Phalangist group. I believe it was an evil act that is not representative of my beliefs in Christ or the beliefs of any true Christian. Just because they were of a Marionite background did not mean collaboration with the Christian world or with their current Patriarch. The collaboration was committed & permitted by the evils of Zionism. No true Christian body ever approved the slaughter of these innocent Muslim people. Everytime I think of them my heart goes out to them and reminds me how evil non-believing Christians can be. These are the sad realities when Christ is not in peoples lives.
The practice of evil is not part of the true Christian faith regardless who committs it. True Christianity did not spread by the sword as you alluded. It was spread and practiced by the Saints and Martyrs who did not wage war but surrendered themselves as Christ did on the Cross. Violence is only spread by the willies of the Devil and history can attest to that. You also alluded that you would not replace an inferior religion for another(Islam). How is it you consider yourself a Muslim of any brand?
The time you have spent in here in these forums is not the appropriate place to cast judgment of what you think you know and have learned. Based on what I have read of your posts you have a long way to go in learning about true Christianity.
An interesting point you did make is about Christians worshipping the Son of God or worshipping the Son of Shaitan. The Son of Shaitan is another name for Son of Perdition(destruction). In the Gospel of John 17:12 it refers to Judas Iscariot. Generally speaking it refers to the antichrist(dajjal). I would hope you would not be worshipping the Son of Shaitan but the Son of God who came in the flesh. All of us can be anti-Christs if we don't obey & worship & seek repentance and forgiveness from the Son of God. I know that in true Christianity as well as Islam repentance and forgivenss are key themes repeated on a daily basis because of the influences of Shaitan. Shaitan is real entity and we all have the free will to accept him or reject him. All of us at times have compromised with him. If you think you haven't then you must be deluded. Committing harm to another people is not the Christian or Islamic faith. However, in Islam it goes further by committing to holy wars based on the Quran and hadiths whereas the true Christian Faith does not have an equivalency. There is no need for me to quote from the Quran the harms said and done all in the name of Allah.
I for one do not beleive that we worship the same Allah. If we did, you and I would be worshipping in my Church and your Masjid.
The essence of Islam is anti-Christian since Christ is not regarded as God in the flesh. As long as Islam denys the divinity of Christ and continues propagating the ancient Christian heresies of Gnosticism and Nestorianism, peace will never be a reality in Islamic nations. Your people are really my people despite our religious differences. Whenever Muslims around the world are ill-treated Christians go to their aid. But when Christians in Islamic nations are ill-treated how many Muslims come to their aid?!There are no swords used as you believe. I am sorry you are so misinformed to associate certain violent Serbians
against Bosnian Muslims as my fellow Christians. My fellow Sebian Christians are those you obey and follow their Patriarch Pavle's admonitions against the violence from both sides of the camp. At least in the true Christian faith we have apostolic hiearchies that are responsible to speak the truth whereas Islam does not. We as true Christians pray for Christians and non-Christians that have been wronged. As an Arab Christian between East & West I pray for my enemies hoping that they may have a personal encounter with the Risen Christ by putting aside all earthly cares. Islam does not teach the love for enemies or to turn the other cheek but to take revenge in the form of self-defense. How is revenge controlled or maintained? This has been the epidemic problem of & in Islam. Islam is subject to every school of thougth that there is no such entity as infallible Islam. There are Islamic shades of various colors that claim what Islam is. As I said earlier there is no Islamic hiearchy spokemen but the current Islamic governements. There is nothing Christian about acts of wars as there is in Islam. There is nothing Christian about the war between Catholics & Protestants in Northern Ireland or any place in the world. Muslims during the Iraq-Iran war both claimed jihad on one another and so many lives were lost not for the sake of love. The topic of martyrdom in Islam is not the same as in Christianity. The Christian Faith spread in the first three hundreds years of her existence because the sword was waged against Christians and not vice verse.


Do you know that out of 30 major wars going on around the world 28 are in Islamic nations? Islam promotes peace when you are subject to its rules and jihad when it feels taking down the enemy. I certainly did not come up with the idea that I belong to Dar al-Harb(house of war). Islam did! Dar Islam is a dangerous view of dealing with the world especially with its doctrine of jihad. If you did study early Islam would would know that the sword was used and many battles were fought. Constantinople did not open her doors when the Muslims invaded with the swords. I caution you to really know & research the history of Islam and Christianity because there are vast volumes of materials that have been written objectively and subjectively. God's luck be with you in your journey in finding the truth.

Here we go again!

Over and over again, on this thread, I have confessed---over and over again---that we, Muslims, have committed many sins against God and humanity and against ourselves. How many more times must I confess our faults?

"ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Have I left anyone out? Have I said, "Muslims excluded?" No, I haven't.

I didn't come here to convert Christians to Islam. There is no need for Christians to become Muslims, since they are people of the book and of the family of Abraham. I just want these Christians of the East to know that Muslims do not come out of a cookie cutter, we are not all Arabs, and that there are many different ways to be a Muslim. This is the same message I post at the Protestant message boards.

Say whatever you will about Islam and Christianity. But my roots are in my community and I am happy to be a Muslim. Actually, my time with Christians on the internet has strenghtened my faith in Islam since I have been forced to defend it. I know Christians who have experienced that same increase in faith by enduring the fire of criticism and even insult. Maybe these debates are actually good for one's faith.

But I love Islam, just as you love Christianity. I was born a Muslim and I will die a Muslim, just as you were born a Christian and will die a Christian: God bless us both.

Just let me assure you that nothing you say about Islam will deter me from submitting to the will of God.

Now: Could you email your senator and /or congressman and insist that the US continue to enforce sanctions upon all nations that practice slavery, Muslim, Christian, or pagan?

Happy New Year!

Abdur

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur the blessing of God on you and all men:

Don't argue historical fact. You have a good soul and discuss the feelings of your heart and what Islam means to you. Your ideas are good and no one can dispute them. Forgive us as we by being honest cause you injury. Discuss the things that are important to you and not what was.

You must really think that the Christians of the East are imbeciles when they know in fact that the majority of Muslims are non-Arabs. Therefore you have convinced us on this Eastern forum. I hope it's to your satisfaction.
Debates & insults do not bring anyone closer to their Faith. Perhaps that is the way of the fool. Muslim polemicists as well fundamentalist Christians(Protestant & Catholic) get off on this nonsense. In fact, it's disgusting to think one's faith is increased via polemical debates.

Please stop referring to us a "People of the Book". Our Eastern Christian lives revolve around Christ unlike the Muslims and the Sola Scriptura Protestants. Muslims are indeed the people of a book that is considered to be infallible. You wouldn't want it any other way. I maintain that you worship the Quran. Christians have known about their Holy Books before Muhammed was born. Muhammed and his followers have misinformed Muslims themselves and non-believers about the truth about Torah and the Injeel for centuries. Until Islam recants this great lie that we Christians have corrupted the Injeel or has provided ample evidence then your religion remains anti-Christ/anti-Christian. This should be reserved for another topic/thread.

At any rate, have a blessed and honest New Year!

Historical fact?

As in "his-story? Or, "as in the eye of the beholder?" Would you trust, for example, a history of Christianity written by a Jew, or Muslim, maybe a Buddhist, all of whom had an agenda? Didn't you learn in college to study or investigate many sources?

Or historical fact, as in "hiss-tory," or "I hate these people and will write what paints a pretty picture of our "facts"(?), but inevitably cast our opponents in a bad light." Religious believers, like all so-called "true believers," are notorious for bending the truth in the name of their "Holy Cause." Writers and historians of all religions frequently resort to lies and distortion in "defending the faith."

The truth is, you, Robert, and I, were not "there" to observe the facts in discussion and any intelligent and well-adjusted person knows that much (if not all) that we accept as fact could very well be nothing more than fiction. We each accept our particular points of view by faith. That is why you are so correct in observing that we should live our respective faith-life in the present. The past is wrapped in a shroud none of us can unravel.

Abdur

Muslims worship the Quran?

Robert, you are a master cookie cutter.
Or do you make molds for a living?

Which Muslims "worship" Quran?

All of them?

Or just a cabal of emotionally distraught Arab Muslims and other third-world "thinkers" who are more fundamentalist and superstitious than Islamic.

Name me one---just one---liberal or Slavic Muslim or native European Muslim who "worships" Quran.

Your experience with Palestinian, Arab, or other mid-eastern Muslims is just that--your experience. There is a whole Muslim world, that exists outside your experience, that could very well be very different from your Arab world and Arab Islamic culture.

Only God is omniscient.

Abdur
Liberal Muslims in Indonesia declare "jihad" on fundamentalists

http://asia.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/12/18/indonesia.muslims/

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]