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Abdur the blssing of God on you or yours and all men.

Unfortunetly for Islam there are original sources in the various documents written by scribes and governments that still exist. I have quoted one author Bat Ye'or who's books are in English. Use the biblioography in her book on Jihad for further sources.

Islam has as part of it's faith things that are evil. Jihad or struggle is usually translated as war on the infidels; now in your case I hope it is translated as man's struggle for perfection rather than war on non-Moslems. As Robert has pointed out the world of war is the West (and the whole non-Moslem world) and dar Islam the world of peace. You are aware of the treatment of the Dhimmi are you not? If we treated you that way here it would be a terrible crime. Making you dress in either black or brown (as the Dhimmi were so forced) as a sign you are an unbelivers, not able to drive a car or ride a horse, special taxes for the unbelivers. Islam's treatment of minorites is and was genocide and that is the proper Moslem response for us.

We have our oral histories in our families the same as Moslem families. They record the horror of Islam. My Grandmother had never meet a Moslem but told me; "meet a Moslem and break his leg and or kill him" as they can never be trusted. Hitler paid homage to Islam as the source of his genocide when he remembered the Armenian Genocide. You have tried to make a comparison betwen the evils of Islam and Christindom but they are not equal in the horrors they have done. Now Islam murdered between Sixty Million to Three Hundred Million People in the Middle East and N. Africa. That figure does not take into account the murdered Europeans nor the Iranians, Indians and other victim. Ethinic Cleansing is a Moslem invention. The West did evil all over the world to native peoples but those native people survived and thrived under our cruelty but Islam killed off most of it's natives to leave but few survivors. Your Islamic practice of colonialism was much more successful that the West's.

It is hard when dealing with Islam not to see it as a vampire. They bleed the Dhimmi that farmed, built Cities, scholars, Doctors, laborers, artisans and government workers that built your Islamic golden age. Even a tax on Christian sons to man your armies and conquer more territory. With the decline in the Dhimmi population your world went into a decline. If the West afforded equal treatment to it's Moslems citizen we would have to kill most of you and do great evil.

You must understand that we are all decendents of the Dhimmi. There only parallel between our treatment at the hands of Islam would be the Nazi's treatment of Jews and Gypsys in World War II. History has facts and the West goes light on Islam as it is not PC to tell the world that 3rd. worlders murdered, raped, robbed and discriminated against Christians as Islam has done and contnues to do. The treatment of the Copts in Egypt, the People in Southern Sudan and all Christians or non-Moslems in Islamic Lands.

You grasp at the few honest and good Moslems that condemed 9-11 but they are not the majority in Moslem lands. By facts you must look at the population of the Eastern Roman Empire prior to Islam and watch it's decline. One fact is obvious there were Millions of Christians in the Middle East & N. Africa when Islam was born and Islam killed them off and used Ethnic Cleansing when the Moslem Crusaders & Colonists arrived.

You must like at the treatment of African slaves that were brought to the US and then see that the West treated those poor souls better than Islam treated it's slave Dhimmi. Islam should pay reparations or admitt it's evil.

Angelus,

You must mean the "Turkish" genocide of the Armenians. The Turks also committed genocide against Arab Muslims, even slaughtered Albanian Muslims after one of the Balkan wars, and also Kurdish Muslims. So, the historical documents prove that the war against the Armenians was certainly a genocide, but not an Islamic genocide, even though the Turks certainly are Muslims.

In my opionion, if one interprets the historical facts according to your methodology, one would have to also accept the opinion of some, including Byzantine-Greek historians and other historians, that because the Crusaders were Roman Catholics, and because the Crusaders slaughtered thousands of Greeks, Jews, and non-Roman Catholic Christians, then, by that fact all Roman Catholics are genocidal psychopaths and their descendents should pay restitution to the descendents of their victims. (Good luck!)

In other words, do not confuse a part of the history of a group or religion, etc., with the whole history of a group. religion,etc. But by and large, I approach "historical documents" in general with a certain amount of skepticim. Even documents written by an Islamic governor, etc., attempting to prove to his surperior what a bastard he was in his treatment of Jews, Christians, or dissident Muslims, could very well be fudged in order to win favor with that superior. One must be careful, in my opinion.

Spanish Muslims also had a tax imposed upon them by the Christians after they re-conquered Spain and were both lied to, persecuted, and saw treaties with Spanish authorities violated, often under pressure from the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Spain. These same hierarchs, more than once, called for the extermination of the remaining Spanish Muslims, who were often native Spaniards and not Arabs or Moors.

Slavic Muslims suffered similar forms of discrimination upon them by Christians. However, I would not say these restrictions "prove" that all Christians are oppressors.

However, you are correct in stating that Christians were certainly treated as second class citizens by Muslims. And Muslims under colonial European rule were treated just as shabbily by their Christian masters with many forms of oppression imposed upon them that were an affront to human rights and dignity and thousands of Muslims were slaughtered by the Christian colonists, mosques bombed, schools burned, etc.

Hopefully, one day the Christian colonists will beg God's mercy for their criminal and genocidal acts upon North Africans (if they haven't already).

Greek Muslims are still treated as second-class citizens....but that is another story.

Muslim slaves were treated much better than American slaves (if slaves can ever be treated well). Many Muslim slaves held high positions in government, the army, and were allowed to marry and were not prohibited from learning to read and write (many were great scholars, doctors, and scientists) which was forbidden (for the most part) by the Christian American slave owners.

But slavery is (historically) a part of both religions and is an institution condoned in the scriptures of both religions. However, Islam must follow the lead of the Jews and Christians by also putting slavery behind us. Actually, in most Islamic countries slavery is no longer practiced. But, just as there has been a resurrection of what was once considered a dead institution within Christendom, we must still be on guard that it does not gain a foothold among modern Islamic countries.


However, I certainly do admit that Islam has many sins against Christians, Jews, and others to repent of. I know from the posts I have read on other message boards that Christians also admit they have also sinned against us.

God must be pleased for the mutual honesty.

Abdur

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Happy New Year in Christ,
Abdur,
I thougth I'd get your attention. Previously, you did not respond to my earlier post regarding the relation between Allah and His Uncreated Word, your Quran. I would like to know your explanation & understanding of this relation. While you are at it can you tell me what the relationship is between Allah and His Spirit(Ruhho)?

Do you recall in Islamic history this dialogue with the Mu'tazilis & the Hadith folks? Mu'tazalis felt that the Quran to be called the Word of Allah was to set it up to be worshipped beside Him. The Hadith folk believed that the Quran was "not the Creator but not creatd either". An unusual paradox! Reminds me of the Christological controversies that reigned in the early Church. Tell me you don't believe that the Quran is literally the Word of God?

Islam is differnt that all other religions as Jihad holy war is a tenent of your faith. That is offense and genocidal. Your god has commanded to conquer the world and either kill or convert us by the sword. When you compare the crimes of all Christians they are but a three pound bag of apples verses several train loads of apples for the Moslems. Islam killed off so many people under the veil of Jihad. The number of people hurt by christians show the evil of men souls but the sheer number of Islams victims are mind numbing.

Muhammed was an unusal leader. He married a five year old child and it is taken as a sign of his goodness that he waited until she was eight or nine years old to have sex with her; I suspect that he had sexual congress with her after his wedding while she was five years old. That any man marries any infant shows he is a pedophile and a child molester. Mohammed was also a rapist. After he murdered the Jews of Mecca her had sexual congress with a 15 year old child that had been married to a one of the Jews he had murdered that day. Raping a girl on the day her husband died seems evil. Mohammed also claimed a good portion of the property of the Jews he had murdered. Child Molester, rapist, robber, thief, murder and oh so many felony crimes over his lifetime.

"You must mean the "Turkish" genocide of the Armenians. The Turks also committed genocide against Arab Muslims"

The Turks carried out a religious based and sanctioned genocide and while they were killing the Armenians they gathered together one million Greeks and a large number of Jews for extermination (several hundred thousand).

"Byzantine-Greek historians and other historians, that because the Crusaders were Roman Catholics, by that fact all Roman Catholics are genocidal psychopaths and their descendents should pay restitution to the descendents of their victims. (Good luck!)" The total deaths in the Christian Crusader Wars are 300,000. Now when you look at the number of Christians murdered since the birth of Islam it is hundreds of millions, maybe 300 Hundred Million murders. I do not expect to get repartions but that would be just. I am willing for the Christians to pay reparations but only if Islam does.

"Spanish Muslims also had a tax imposed,were both lied to, persecuted, and saw treaties with Spanish authorities violated, often under pressure from the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Spain. These same hierarchs, more than once, called for the extermination of the remaining Spanish Muslims, who were often native Spaniards and not Arabs or Moors." The expelling of the Moslems and Jews after the Spanish retaking their homeland was wrong! The 3,000 murders of the Inquistion are paled by the sheer number of Spaniards kill by Islam.

"Slavic Muslims suffered similar forms of discrimination upon them by Christians. However, I would not say these restrictions "prove" that all Christians are oppressors." With the fall of the Turkish Empire scores were settled but did the Christians practice cruelty to the extent of the Turkish Mosleams? Did they take the child of the Moslems as slaves, steal boys for the Christian army?

"Muslims under colonial European rule were treated just as shabbily by their Christian masters with many forms of oppression imposed upon them that were an affront to human rights and dignity and thousands of Muslims were slaughtered by the Christian colonists, mosques bombed, schools burned, etc. " But they survived as a people and under Islam nearly no Christians survived.

"Greek Muslims are still treated as second-class citizens....but that is another story." and that was and is wrong. But if you are talking about the aftermath of the Greek revolution than recall that tratiors are always punished.

"Muslim slaves were treated much better than American slaves (if slaves can ever be treated well). Many Muslim slaves held high positions in government, the army, and were allowed to marry and were not prohibited from learning to read and write (many were great scholars, doctors, and scientists) which was forbidden (for the most part) by the Christian American slave owners." Sophistry, slavery is wrong! Islam worked these people to death in many cases and even stole their children for sex slaves and soldiers.

"However, Islam must follow the lead of the Jews and Christians by also putting slavery behind us. Actually, in most Islamic countries slavery is no longer practiced." Real slavery continues to exist in Islam and then what is also what is called Sex Slavery is just as much in Islam as in the West or maybe more so.

I think that Islam is a cult started by a madman and criminal and it has conducted evil where ever it has gone. Have you ever talked to an Indian and heard of the evils that befell India under Islam? Or what happened in Iran? Islam is a religioin with many good souls in it but it is a religion closer to Nazism that any other. No other religion except the whorship of Kali by the Thugs commands murder.

Abdur you have to remember that the Eastern Christians suffered under the yoke of slavery. We lost our homelands and many of us lost our lives. I will not return to Constantinople even though that is were my family started. When you talk to the victims of Islamic injustice you are seeing the decendents of a Islamic Halocaust that survived. We here are many of the living but so much was lost. I was invited by a Turkish friend to join the local Turkish club but I declined. I am not a Turk but a Byzantine. My roots are from the US now but I know that I am a member of a dead race. There is no Byzantium and so few survived when we were so many. Islam for us was not a force for good but brought great evil on us. There are so few remaining Christians in the Levant but they are still victims. Even Israel allowed the Moslems to drive the Christian Arabs out of traditionaly Christian town. Now Israel faces the anger of the Moslems. God be with you. I think if your really study this issue you'll see Islam for what it is rather than what you now see it as.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Angelus ]

Angelus,

Half the members of our masjid are African-American converts and they couldn't disagree you with more on the differences between Muslim and Christian enslavement of Africans.

But for me the issue isn't "who is the better master of slaves." The New Islam wants to bring an end to slavery. Hopefully, Christians can bring an end to slavery in Christian countries and put an end to the numerous rapes and mutalations committed against these victims.

Think what you think about our God. On the Day of Judgement all shall be revealed.

I guess you missed the point.....but....."all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord."

I have never claimed that our faith is superior to yours, but you have proven....well...never mind. Let me put it this way: Because I am a Muslim, I don't have to try and convince a believer of any other faith that "my religion is superior to his."

Capiche?

Happy New Year and please e-mail your senator or representative and beg them, if you will, to put the torch to the feet to any nation of whatever religion or lack of religion that still allows the trafficking of slaves.

BTW: Muslims make no strong distinctions between ideology and practice. In other words, a Christian can say to a Muslim, "Our faith does not PREACH or TEACH jihad or holy war." But the Muslim will reply, "Muslims are behaviorists. It makes no difference what you SAY you do or believe, it is what you actually DO that counts." Maybe this "tip" will help you to understand why so much you write about the differences between Islam and Christianity are nonsensical and illogical, from the Muslim point of view.

Here is an example to ponder:

Christian to Muslim: "Muslims are taught if they are killed in jihad they are promised Paradise."

Muslim to Christian: "Popes preached Crusades and promised Paradise to those killed fighting the Muslim infidels. What you do is what you are. There is no difference between us."

His Holiness, John Paul, doesn't have the low opinion of our Lord that you do. Do you believe he would be so stupid as to kiss a book revealed to mankind by a demon?

Maybe you do. But, in all fairness that is your right. But we have thousands ...I mean thousands of unchurched Europeans and Americans who are embracing that Book and finding peace and comfort in its eternal message. That to me is indicative that it is a holy and divine book with an eternal message that comforts those who have been rescued from paganism. I know many such souls and I can see positive growth in their spiritual lives and a true growth in holiness.

Redeemed souls! Alhamduallah, that is all the proof I need.

When they lay down the "needle" and pick up the Quran...that is all the proof I need.

Allahu akbar!

Abdur

Robert: I already posted a response to your challenge about the divinity of the Quran.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

May Jesus the Living God bless you and all people.

"Half the members of our masjid are African-American converts and they couldn't disagree you with more on the differences between Muslim and Christian enslavement of Africans." yes you are correct as they survived and their population grew under slavery while the Dhimmi, our people suffered so much longer than the African slaves. our slavery was from the conquest to the present and Western slavery from 1492 to 1865. Slavery in the West was short lived and was ended by our governments. But slavery in Islam still exists and thrives. Do you teach those Africa-Americans that it was Moslems and Africans that sold the African slaves to the West? 300,000 slaves to the West and 3,000,000 into Islam as slaves! Now the moslems held hundreds of millions of our people as Dhimmi slaves.

"Islam wants to bring an end to slavery." which still exists. "Hopefully, Christians can bring an end to slavery in Christian countries and put an end to the numerous rapes and mutalations committed against these victims." again you are correct as white slavery or prostition does exist in the West and in all the Moslems lands.

"I guess you missed the point.....but....."all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord.". But the point is that we are doing wrong when we murder or rape but a Moslem is doing gods' work when he rapes and murders. There is no ethical equivilent between the two.


"Happy New Year and please e-mail your senator or representative and beg them, if you will, to put the torch to the feet to any nation of whatever religion or lack of religion that still allows the trafficking of slaves." In this we agree!

"BTW: Muslims make no strong distinctions between ideology and practice. In other words, a Christian can say to a Muslim, "Our faith does not PREACH or TEACH jihad or holy war." But the Muslim will reply, "Muslims are behaviorists. It makes no difference what you SAY you do or believe, it is what you actually DO that counts." Maybe this "tip" will help you to understand why so much you write about the differences between Islam and Christianity are nonsensical and illogical," The attack on the World Trade center was a holy act of Jihad in Islam as was the shorting of the US and European Stock markets by bin ladens backers and friends. Insider trading on the deaths of 3,000 is a very holy Moslem act of behavior. The 500 Billion dollars stolen from US investors nor the loses in Europe by this act of thief by moslems has not been sought to be recovered as so many Moslems benifited from these deaths that it would embaress the Moslem world.

"Popes preached Crusades and promised Paradise to those killed fighting the Muslim infidels. What you do is what you are. There is no difference between us." and that was nearly 1,000 years ago will the 9-11 Jihad attack was but months ago. For Islam Jihad is still in effect. But were the Crusaders going to belatedly rescue Christians from Islam? The lands were ours first and your Moslem Crusaders and Moslem Colonists invaded and killed the native Christians.

Islam supplies 75% of the worlds heroin. Islam runs food stamp fruad rings in the US and pays poor people 50 cents on the dollar for their food stamps. Islam raises money for charity and it goes to terrorists.

Rather than read Moslem apoligists try reading mainstream history. It is the extent of Islam's the crimes that is mind numbing. When you compare the West and Islam it is like sentencing a child for skipping school to the same sentence as a serial killer.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Angelus ]

Christ our Lord & Savior help you,
As I continue to read your posts to Angelus, I can't help to say that you are very mislead and misinformed person. You seem to keep insinuating that your religion is superior to our religion by bringing up issues of killings and slavery or who has done the least. First of all, you are speaking to some of us who are Eastern Orthodox. Despite the evil that permitted the Crusades, the theology of that time preached by the Roman Catholic Church in regards killing the infidels and entering Paradise was and is false as the teachings of Islamic jihad. I do not believe Rome preaches this sort of jihad any longer but I know that Orthodoxy does not. As an Orthodox, we never accepted the use of the sword. It has been used against the Orthodox more than any other religious body of believers. Orthodoxy has prevailed the persecutions by militant Islam and militant atheism. Our biggest enemy is relativism and I would not be surprised if it took on a form of militancy.

As for the Quran, it is a book of mislead writings garnered from the Judeo-Christian tradition, heretical Christianity, and animist elements. No true Muslim will acknowledge these origins since it might be detrimental to their Islam. Surely Muhammed was not an illiterate. His people were an ignorant people who became his followers. In Muhammed's days people never verified or confirmed the accuracy of news and revelations. His people were a naive people as many of them are today. They took everything he said for granted. As he grew in strenght and conquered people and territories he gained more of a following due to fear. The naive believed God must have been on his side but that is the outlook of the naive. What does the naive know!
Muhammed had such a fascination for religious books(kitab) that he thought his people should have a book of their own in the Arabic language. The Quran spoke Arabic. One could also say Allah spoke Arabic as the Quran attests to. Allah the conqueror via Muhammed the conqueror had an appetite to take over peoples and lands. It did not matter if the sword was used or not. Fear was a strong factor that forced many Christian people to convert, or pay dhimmi taxes, or immigrate, or endure persecution & harassment via discrimination (even to this day).
The Quran must be held responsible for the hatred against humanity as well as persecution. It is a book that should be censored. If it is to be read it should be read with caution and under the guidance of an Islamist who knows its inherent dangers. Islam is a serious threat to society. It infringes of the rights of people. Its lifestyle & thinking is primitive. I have recommended a website before and here it is again www.secularislam.org [secularislam.org]
Designed for Muslims and non-Muslims reading information. This is probably the only honest website by former Muslims that speak the truth about Islam.

I could easily search the web for sites crafted by "Ex-Christians," "Ex-Catholics,"�"Atheists for the Destruction of Christianity," etc., but I would never do that. That is too sleazy for me.

Others are so ignorant that they would sink that low, but I will not.

The Pope loves us and, in his own way, cares for us and for that I am grateful..very grateful.

And I have met good...truly good...Protestants in our neighborhood and over the internet who are really decent people. For that I am grateful...very grateful indeed.

And I have seen another side of Christianity, that of Angelus and you, that is very different from the Christianity of His Holiness and my Protestant neighbors and friends, and for that I am very grateful, grateful in deed.

If His Holiness ever needs us, we will come to his aid. I kiss his hands, and he knows where he can find us.

Peace to all men and women of good will, wherever they can be found.

Abdur Islamovic

"For us, what was decided by Islam long ago is not suitable in the context of current times. We try to capture the substance of the message and not the text."--Salahuddin Wadi. Muslim leader in Indonesia, worlds largest (in population) Islamic nation.

"We are the champs." Muhammed Ali, speaking at Islamic Missionary Society convention. Inshallah...Inshallah.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur the blessing of God that you be saved:

It is very interesting that you were unable to use facts to prove your case and then cavalierly dismiss the deaths of hundreds of millions and the enslavement of much mankind by your cause. That you do not dispute facts shows you are aware of the facts in this case. But you have judged me without all the information a judge would require. I see that it is useless to educate you as your heart is and was hardened. To enter into a debate with preconcevied notions that you are unwilling to modify shows your true intent. From actions intent is drawn. Sophistry and glib words prove not a case. I was open to new information if you would have had same. Being an apoligist for Islamic genocide is a hard task to bear.

Angelus,

There is no need for you to apologize for the slaughter of millions of Muslims by the Christian European invaders. After all, it was none of your dirty work.

Be assured, I never take what you write seriously since I know the majority of it is pure fiction and frabicated for the sake of debate.

You have strengthened me in Islam, and I do sincerely appreciate all your help and you are the instrument of Allah in confirming the Holy Truth of the Blessed and Sacred Quran.

"There is no god but Allah,

and Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah."

And at this very moment that message is being carried, from the Slavic Muslim villages, to the (now) unchurched and paganized countries of Europe.

Thank you for making me a better Slavic Muslim. How can I ever thank you?

Allah's will be done.

Al'hamdu'llah!

Abdur Islamovic

Abdur,
Your arrogance knows no bounds according to your indecent & triumphalistic manners. Please do us a favor by reviewing & supporting www.secularislam.org [secularislam.org]
I was very happy to have discovered a site that shared my similiar views of Islam. I was just reading the Quran (Surat al-Nisa) and I cant tell you how disgusted I am with the treatment of women and slaves in verse 24.

"Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath God ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and God is All-knowing, All-wise."


What intrigues me is the commentary that speaks of "Whom your right hands possess" in cases of a jihad. These captives of whose "right hands possess" are but the concubines (SLAVEGIRLS)of Muhammed. Muhammed had to have had sexual intercourse with these slavegirls because Yusfi Ali informs us that formal hostilities dissolve civil ties(#537).
Allah knows how many slavegirls he took as a bounty from waging his holy jihads. One thing for sure, if his first wife Khadija was still alive he certainly would not have married 12 wives and had concubines. He had to wait until she died since she controlled the wealth. At any rate, Muhammed promoted slavery and encouraged it amongst his followers after winning a war for Allah. Do you recall when they conquered the Arab Jewish tribes? They took the women & children as slaves and decapitated the men!

How about Surat an-Nur 24:33.27 "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your SLAVES ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"

Please explain this bias control of slavery or when to provide a slave a deed & how do you determine objectively any good in them? Hint: there are no Islamic universal standards.

Again the words "the right hands possess" appears in Surat al-Ahzab 33:55.32
"There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (slaves) whom their right hands possess. And, (ladies), fear God; for God is Witness to all things.

If you really want to know if Christians support & promote slavery you need to ask & seek our hiearchs or Patriarchs. I'll save you the time. The answer is no. As for Islam, you really do not have any authority to speak on your behalf except perhaps from your local mosque or favorite Islamic government or your very own bias intellect. Do yourself the favor and enroll at the nearest university and take up Islamic studies. That's what I received my B.A. in. Try reading "The Venture of Islam" by Marshall G.S. Hodgson. He has three volumes of these great readings. Have fun.


Allah akbar alika wa ala ashkalik al-nijs

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Rum Orthodox ]

Abdur,
I am thinking about e-mailing my congressman to place a ban on books that promote slavery and concubines like what's written in the Quran. I am going to inform him how women are looked upon as concubines in Paradise and how men are expected 72 virgin concubines. He'll have to know about what "the right hands possess". Will you help me in this crusade to ban verses from the Quran that encourage slavery of women? Especially the imagery of these concubines which "the right hands possess?

Slavery and concubines?

Slavery and concubines? According to you, then, Solomon must have been the King of Kafirs.

Robert,

Banning?

If you did that you would have to ban the Christian Bible.

Don't you read it? I do.

Concentrate on banning slavery in Europe!

BTW: Muhammed a pedophile? Lies,nothing but lies. The Hadiths are unreliable records of the Prophet's life,

Allah gave us but one book that is pure and reliable:The Holy Quran.

The Hadiths are fairy tales.

Paradise and Virgins,etc.?

Nothing personal, but only a fool takes those verses literally. You obviously have never heard of figurative language or metaphorical language, especially of the Oriental variety, which comes to me as a surprise.

Hate really takes it toll. You know that I am a Slavic Muslim and you can never pound me into submission. That fact is driving you insane and bringing out the worst in you, as well as destroying your own spiritual life.

It seems to me that your "brand" of fundamentalist Chrisianity is just as hateful as fundamentalist Islam. What a shame.

But rant and rave all you want. You cannot pound, degrade, or humiliate a Slavic Muslim into submission.

But thank you for allowing me to experience a form of martyrdom.

Abdur

PS-From Indonesia to China to the Indian subcontinent to Central Asia to the Caucacus region to Russia proper to the Balkans to Arabia to subsaharan Africa to North Africa and beyond, Christians of Dutch, Belgian, French, English, Italian, Spanish, Russian, and other nationalities, i.e., colonist Christians, have been responsible for the mass slaughter, both through war and economic deprivation, of multi-millions of Muslims ( and others) over the last few centuries in an occuptation of foreign lands that has only ended in the last few decades. In the 19th century, Muslim leaders were in a state of such despair over the millions of Muslims who had become the victims of Christendom that they agonized over the extermination of Muslims and the death of Islam.

Here is the point: Both Islam and Christendom PRACTICE jihad. There is only one difference between the two religions: Islam is straightforward about jihad, while Christendom chooses to deceive itself about the issue.

But not the leader of Christendom, the Pope. He has been forthright and confessed to God and the world that the Church is responsible for the death of millions, "infidels and Muslims," whose lives were of no value to those who strode the world on the backs of the weak and the poor; who strode the world in a path of blood under the banner of the Prince of Peace. The Pope has a clear understanding of this issue and I believe he is sincere.

Usama bin Ladin, in many ways, is correct about the West and its hatred for Islam and Muslims. But in order to "redress grievances" he has sunk down to the level of a butchering Crusader. He is to be pitied and despised.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

For those who are interested in the differences between Christianity and Islam there is a new book out entitled - "Answering Islam - The Crescent In The Light Of The Cross" by Norman L. Geisler & Abdul Saleeb.
It can be obtained from Light-n-Life Publishing which is the largest Orthodox Publishing Company in North & South America. It can be ordered thru their on-line website.
Apparently this is a very popular book at present. They have sold out twice already. I had to wait for my copy which just arrived last week.

Orthoman