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Obviously you are as evasive & deceptive as other Muslims that I have talked to. Instead of focusing on the Quranic verses that sanction slavery of women which "thy right hands possess" via jihad you bombard me with your silly nonsense. Why don't you answer the charges about these concubines? To this very day they occur in a number of Islamic countries like Saudia Arabia & Indonesia. Why don't you go after them!
Most of the fools who believe in the 72 Virgins and concubines have been you very own people. Perhaps you are blind to the Arabic language or to ijtihad or to your own people. The Arabs & non-Arab muslims believe it to be an incentive to Paradise. You have the audacity to tell me that they do not. You make me laugh. If you were to do a random sample from amongst your people they certainly would prove you wrong. You do not have authority over what they read and believe. That's the inherent evil of Islam when it does not have a true and sensible hiearchy other than these Islamic govermnents.

As for Jihad practiced by Islam and Catholicism, both are branded guilty. Islam moreso than Catholicism since the latter has ceased. You forget you are speaking to an Orthodox Christian and the jihad that your people subscribe to was never part of our theology. If you are intelligent as you think you are demonstrate for me where I can find the acceptance of jihad in the Orthodox Christian Faith. Then I will accept your authority & become a Muslim. If you cant provide a shread of ample evidence then I suggest you stop with the Islamic polemics & be on your merry way. I certainly would not ask you to convert to Christianity because you are contaminated by Shaitan.
As I said earlier you are a misinformed Muslim. The Pope is the spiritual leader of all Catholics in communion with him. The Orthodox Chritians have their own Popes and Patriarchs. I hope you have learned something here today. Your generalizations of the Christian faith or Christianity reaps Allah's wrath upon your people. 28 out of 30 wars in the world are in Islamic nations which says a whole lot about Islam!
The Christians are working hard in Islamic nations to bring the Gospel to them. But they seem to enjoy declaring jihad on one another. Slaying of peoples and labeling of them as Kuffar. The way of Islam.
Thanks for being concerned about my spirituallity. However, it's none of your concern since you are an agent of Shaitan. Have an honest & truthful day.

Robert,

While after examining some evidence of history and current Islamic thought, I have come to the prelinary conclusion that your assessment of much of Islam is in fact correct (although the Islam I met in India was totally different and very peacefull, it mostly being of the Ishmaeli sect), i have to ask that you please refrain from labelling Abdur an agent of the devil. I think you merely made him angry by your rough tone, and caused him to fire back at you in the same tone. While I agree with you that we must call a spade a spade, I don't think Abdur exhibits Satanic qualities, or else he wouldn't be here trying to talk to us.

in Christ,

anastasios

Robert,


Think of it this way:

Do liberal Protestants interpret the Bible literally like some Muslims, and evidently you, interpret the Quran? NO! So just consider me the
Slavic Muslim equivalent of a liberal Protestant. If I were a Christian, I would be a liberal Protestant.

I do admit that I am in the minority in Islam, not because I am not a fundamentalist or terrorist, but because I bring a hermeneutic to the Quran that is not rooted in the stone age.

I interpret the Quran according to my own conscience, from my own experience as a Slavic Muslim, as an American of European ancestry. I have little, if anything, in common with your Arab brothers---the truth is, I do not admire their culture.

I have posted on this thread multiple times...do Christians have a reading retention problem?....that Islam has committed many sins and is in need of a great deal of reform. But Christendom also has dirty hands. Unfortunately, my experience is that honest and sincere Christians, like the Pope, are rare and most Christians will seldom admit to the evils committed by Christians against the non-Christian world. I think my faith in more mature and seasoned from being under fire from folks like you for most of my life, since I am a Muslim in America, and a member of a minority ethnic group within Islam. How many blond and blue-eyed Muslim basketball players have you met during your life-time? The Arabs....well...?

Agent of Satan? If I am, where is my paycheck?

"Bless and do not curse." Saint Paul

Abdur Islamovic

Slowly, but surely, and by the grace of Allah, crawling out of the stone age.

Al'hamdu'llah, blessed by Islam.

Muslim Peace Fellowship

www.mpfweb.org/200110_5ways.html [mpfweb.org]

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur: I think I understand what your saying. You are a blue, eyed, blond European and you feel a blood guilt for all the evils the Europeans vested on the colonial area's of the world, the slave trade and the Christian Crusades as your people are Europeans! As you are a Bosnian you also feel a blood guilt for all the evils vested on the Dhimmi by your brothers in faith and blood the Turks. As your Bosnian people were part of the Turkish Military Administration that abused your fellow Europeans. Enjoy your blood guilt.

As you have pointed out the Byzantine natives were killed by the Crusaders and I would believe those same poor Byzantines were also slaughtered by the Moslem Crusaders when the Christian Crusaders lost. As I am a Byzantine I feel no guilt about the Crusades but I am one of the victims of your European Crusade and or the actions of your Moslem Crusader Brothers. I am a Catholic and attend the Roman Church but it was my blood spilled by both sides in this adventure. I am not sure if my family were Roman Catholic at the time of the Crusades. I do think that you can possibly blame me for the actions of Caesar and Alexander the Great through Constantine the Great and yes you can put the blame on me and target me for the crimes of Constantine the Great to the last Emperor Constantine on May, 29th 1453.

Do you see yourself superior to us of the Levant? I taste a certain gingoist pride that you are a white European and we are not! Now my family moved to Europe prior to coming to the USA but we remained Byzantine's.

I agree with Robert's analyse of Islam. I commend Abdur for being a secular Moslem and see that as a future while primitive Islam is doomed to the trash bin of history. I did not know nor was I aware that Moslem sources on the life of Mohammed were in error. I had thought it was a fact that he married an infant child. Thanks for clearing up that Moslem sources are suspect and inaccurate.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Angelus ]

A slavic muslim, what a shame. To me that is similiar to Rice Krispies with no milk.

Abdur,
I reject both liberal Prostestantism and Islam within the same breath. The comparisons make no difference to me. Both reject Christ and His Church. You may have a different perspective of what Islam means to you but the vast majority of Islam don't care for what you think. Majority rules!
Islam is devilishly inspired because of one a small, itsy, bitsy fact: Christ, the eteranl Word of Allah, is denied and rejected. Granted that many Muslims are great people but their Islam is a sham. I prefer to call it I-sham. The teachings of Islam are a corruption of what was taught before it and Muhammed did not bring any new revelations or miracles for that matter.

From my studies of any scriptures they revolve around the memories of the religious community. For the Eastern Christian it is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. For Sunni Islam it is the ummah(community). However, private interpretation of scriptures is rejected by the Church. Whereas in Islam everyone can hold their very own conscious responsible for their personal interpretation. For every interpretation you give you will find 10 others with different interpretations. It goes on and on.
Abdur, you may be a minority within a minority but you do not want to face reality that the Islamic faith is but a sham of lies. Yes, we can admit to what Christians have done to Christians and non-Christians day and night and vice verse. This will not resolve the real issues. I have a gripe with Western Christians that have deviated from Orthodoxy. However, Islam is a major deviation in comparison.

Angelus,
Muhammed did in fact marry a 9 year old named Aiyasha, the daughter of Abu Bakr. According to one of the hadiths, Muhammed loved three things dearest to his heart: women, food, and fragrance. His appetite for women did not stop him from marrying a child that played with toys. Didn't he have enough women that he had to accept marriage to a 9 year old in 623 AD? Allah only knows what he did to her. Aiyasha was also know as "the Mother of all believers". Islamic polemics claim that this was for political reasons to strengthen the bonds between various Arab tribes. In those days everyone who wanted to be associated with a rich, powerful & feared ruler would offer their wives and daugthters. Muhammed even married his foster son's wife because Allah gave him a divine revelation that it was okay! This contradicts the prohibition proscribed in the Quran in Surat al-Nisa. He married his foster son's wife because she was very attractive. All of this is the absurdity recorded in the Quran, hadiths and history. How long do we continue playing games that Islam is the way of life when in fact it was the way of Muhammed?!!!
The practice of divorce is another joke which his foster son had to do and say three times to release his wife to his daddy Muhammed. If he wanted her back his daddy would have to have slept with her, divorced her to the third degree, and would then be able to remarry her!!! Nice Islam. Ask any Muslim.


Allah akbar upon Islam and all those lies and myths promoted by it! It is a regression back to the dark ages.

"I used to be shy. You made me sing."
---Rumi

Bosnia

www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/killing.html [haverford.edu]

The Signs of the End of the Age (Matthew 24:3-14)

24:3 As7 he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, �Tell us, when will these things8 happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?� 24:4 Jesus answered them,9 �Watch out10 that no one misleads you. 24:5 For many will come in my name, saying, �I am the Christ,�11 and they will mislead many. 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come.12 24:7 For nation will rise up in arms13 against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines14 and earthquakes in various places. 24:8 All15 these things are the beginning of birthpangs.

Persecution of Disciples

24:9 �Then they will hand you over to be persecuted and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations16 because of my name.17 24:10 Then many will be led into sin,18 and they will betray one another and hate one another. 24:11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive19 many, 24:12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. 24:13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved.20 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations,21 and then the end will come.

Glory to thee O Lord, Glory to thee

Nur!

Allah is the Light Who casts out darkness, even from the darkest of souls.

O Muslims...come to felicity. O Muslims...lift up the banner of rightousness.

"Be always at work scraping the dirt from the well. To everyone who suffers perserverance brings good fortune. The Prophet has said that each prostration of prayer is a knock on heaven's door."--Rumi

www.artreachfoundation.org/IMAGES/Photos/B-mosque.jpg [artreachfoundation.org]

Battered but stronger than before.

Christian, Jew, or Muslim, God redeems all His beloved children!

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Snap...crackle...pop! Spare us the cacophony.

Slava! Slava!

Open-hearted Bosnia

Refuge of Moses

Pillow of Jesus

Fortress of Muhammed


Slava! Slava!

Open-hearted Bosnia

Sanctuary to Sanctuaries

Allah's three Loves preserved


Slava! Slava!

Mother Bosnia

Glory of Muslim Slavs!

Dear Friends,

I am appalled and shocked by the tone of discussion on this thread with respect to Islam and, more importantly, the treatment of Abdur our brother.

If by saying this I draw on myself your "Orthodox" anger, so be it. A number of you would say similar things about Eastern Catholics, such as myself.

Remember that you represent Orthodoxy when you speak anywhere.

Ask yourselves if Christ would speak to Abdur and about Islam, the way you speak.

Right now, you resemble the people Christ was throwing out of the temple.

With regrets,

Alex

Abdur,
Just for entertainment you said

"Allah gave us but one book that is pure and reliable:The Holy Quran. The Hadiths are fairy tales".

On what basis is the Quran pure and reliable? Who came up with that gnostic idea? What is pure about some of the issues we discussed? How about if I gave you a book called "The True Furqan" saying I am a prophet speaking your own Slavic language would you believe me? Why not? I am a messenger of Allah who has come to give thee glad tidings! Here is a verse from "True Furqan" from Surat Al Anbeya(The Prophets):

1. O' you who have blasphemed and gone astray, yet claim to still be among Our worshippers: you fabricate a statement, then recite it. One quickly learns that it is neither poetry nor prose; at times it is not even nuggets of pithy sayings. 2. It is so often no more than gibberish repeated redundantly and incoherently. 3. Once understood the words terrify Our followers grievously and threaten the defiant fearfully. 4. The rhyming words found favor even in the souls of Our worshippers who have gone astray, yet claim they belong to Us. Surprisingly, even the ignorant seem to fall for it. 5. It is more or less like poison hidden in the heart of tasty dishes of food. Yet this fact is not realiized by most of them. Thus, they do not make an effort whatsoever to avoid it. 6. We have indeed forewarned Our followers concerning the imposters stating, "By their fruits you will know them." Is it really feasible to produce grapes from a thorn bush or figs from a thistle? 7. The declarations of the imposters cause Our faithful followers sheer terror because of instructions to commit murder. They react with distaste to orders for attacking others and feel some anxiety from the idea of Paradise full of sexual immortality and debauchery. 8. Whenever Our faithful followers hear of such pronouncements their physical bodies tremble violently out of disgust, seeking refuge in Us from satan, the cursed one.

Well, what do you think? Does this sound like something from Allah? It sounds good doesn't it?! Well I have to break to you, it really is a Christian source written by a Christian for Muslims in both English & Arabic.

Telling mainstream Islam that the Hadiths are fairy tales will certainly get you in trouble. Generally speaking, they would not consider you a Muslim & would declare war on you.

This is what I had in mind for you as I was reflecting on our posts. If you are interested in purchasing the "True Furqan", I will be more than delighted to give you the address for your order.

Omega 2001
PO BOX 228
Mobile, AL 36601
The cost is $20 that is leather bound in green consisting of 368 pages. If you would like the tapes it would cost you $25. Enjoy!

Robert,


This is the Islamic creed I composed to myself and for myself. It represents the essence of what I believe.

I don't care what they believe in Teheran, or Mekka, or Cairo, of Islamabad. My favorite shaikh is a Turk who wears a three-piece suit, sings, and plays the piano!

"We should kill you, but... ." I've heard that for years. "From Allah I have come and to Allah I shall return."

I am an Islamic heretic, but "the letter killeth while the spirit brings forth life."

I love Muhammed because he was just a man...just a man... and I have never expected him to be perfect. If he were perfect, I couldn't believe in him, just as if Adam, Abraham, Moses, Saul, David, Solomon, etc., were perfect, I couldn't believe or trust in them.

But the religion of Muhammed is in dire need of reform and the Sufi's have been reforming it for centuries and will be reforming it for centuries to come. I am grateful to Allah that many Muslims have grasped the vision of that reform and work daily, in simple ways and far from the media, to implement those reforms in their personal and communal lives.

When the Quran is read literally, just like the Old Testament or New Testament, serious problems arise.
That is why we cling so tenaciously to our belief that "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Abdur

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Looks like I was wrong about Mohammed. I had read in several sources that Mohammed married Aiyasha when she was five years old and did not consumate the marriage until she was either eight or nine years old. The fact that he waited was used to show his grace and patience. Now one book was given to me by the Black Moslems and some of thier interpretaion is at odds with Orthodox Islam but the same information was also in several other books. Now since I can not read Arabic I bow to the panels greater knowledge and admit my error. Now I had also thought Mohammed committed incest with his son's wife, after a Islamic devorice when Mohammed married her. Again it appears that I was wrong. one book was written by a former Moslem and was an attack on Islam so the author must have had a biais.