www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Byzantine Liturgy at Westminster Abbey

Dear Friends,
Just last Sunday, I had the great privilege of conducting the choir in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy at Westminster Abbey (Benedictine) in Mission, B.C. Father Taras Kraychuk, a hieromonk of the Ukrainian Catholic Archeparchy of Winnipeg and a good friend of mine, presided at the Liturgy. All I can say is that the Byzantine Liturgy is an amazingly beautiful thing. I came away greatly moved and greatly impressed by it. Soooo beautiful!
A few days later, Father Taras came to the school where I teach. Since all of our students have their Religion classes at the same time, we brought them all up to the chapel for a talk given by Father Taras. It was so wonderful! And the kids were intent on every word he spoke and every gesture he made. Here were all these Latin rite kids telling me how cool Father Taras' talk was. He talked about the Eastern sign of the cross, the Byzantine cross and its symbolism, etc... It was all serious stuff concerning the Byzantine tradition. Then he vested for the celebration of an Akathist to the Mother of God. We all joined in singing this beautiful litany to our Blessed Mother. Needless to say, the students all came away very, very impressed. And so did I!
The Byzantine tradition is so rich and so beautiful. Just want you all to know how much I appreciate it.

God bless,

Ed

Dear Edward,

Thank you for that beautiful account and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!

I once "roped" our university chaplain into inviting my parish priest for a Byzantine Divine Liturgy at the college chapel.

Everything went well until the very beginning. The chaplain forgot that we serve the Liturgy "facing God" rather than the people.

Our parish priest then simply said, "It's O.K., we'll have it facing the people, no problem . . ."

Somehow, it just wasn't the same, though.

Some of our RC colleagues then went to the chaplain afterwards to say that they too thought the Liturgy was beautiful, but that there too many "Lord have mercy's" for their liking etc.

I spoke with the chaplain, himself a student of liturgy, and when I showed my upset at those comments, he turned to me and said, "Alex, never mind, those guys wouldn't know liturgical class if it jumped up and bit them in broad daylight."

During the Vatican II Council, I understand that Mass was celebrated according to the different Rites. Our chaplain kept a library of all the missals of the Rites with him and prayed with them daily.

God bless,

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ! This is wonderful news. I hope it has a lasting effect in restoring tradition among Roman Catholics, a restoration that, though slow, is under way, as Robert Horwath described "Generation Tradition'. May more of GT meet more people like Fr Taras and learn how the Orthodox tradition has saving medicine for the whole Church.

The title of this thread got my attention as of course I thought it referred to the famous medieval abbey church (formerly Catholic and Benedictine, now Anglican) in London, the site of coronations and today full of secular monuments to Britain's heroes (the restored shrine and altar of St Edward the Confessor are there, however, as is a very Catholic-looking RAF chapel with their Communion reserved above the altar in a pyx). Recently, years after I'd last been there, I saw a picture of the old abbey's interior and noticed icons of Jesus and Mary on flanking pillars in the nave, with votive candle stands in front of them. Anglicanism is so comprehensive today that such a gesture is like the Roman emperor Hadrian's offer to add Jesus to the Pantheon (which the Church turned down), but one hopes it bears good fruit among sincere people who visit the abbey to pray.

The abbey, BTW, is actually named after St Peter, and is not a cathedral, though it looks like one.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Just a note on your post about Hadrian.

It was actually the Roman Emperor Alexander Severus who DID add a statue of Christ to the Roman Pantheon of gods, whose syncretism was rejected by the Church.

I know this because it was under him that my wife's patron saint, Tatiana, suffered martyrdom in the forum (the Roman Forum, not the Byzantine Forum . . . hee, hee).

My wife is aware of this and sometimes reminds me of the martyric existence of more than one Tatiana living with their Alexanders . . .

I once visited an Anglican church and saw a copy of St Andrew Rubleev's icon hanging at the front - next to a statue of Thomas Cranmer.

Alex

It was actually the Roman Emperor Alexander Severus who DID add a statue of Christ to the Roman Pantheon of gods, whose syncretism was rejected by the Church.

Thanks. It seems my source, which I can't find right now, was wrong.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge,

Not a problem!

Despite his syncretism, Alexander Severus was a serious, studious fellow who at least took the trouble to examine the claims of Christianity respectfully and even paid Christ a kind of tribute.

Origen discussed the letter of Pilate to Tiberius explaining himself and the crucifixion of Jesus.

An Ethiopian tradition relates that Tiberius was upset that Pilate didn't "employ" Christ in the Roman civil service on behalf of the Empire (!).

The Romans, it would seem, were experts at "co-opting."

God bless,

Alex

They still are.

(As long as they're in charge).

Apropos the Byzantine liturgy for the Latin students, I think it is a wonderful thing in general. As a young seminarian (who could sing) I was oftentimes involved in "dog and pony" liturgies at parishes and schools. I served a Ruthenian Jesuit priest in a lot of places, a Russian Jesuit choir in Germany (almost got arrested crossing into East Berlin!) and a weekly Maronite liturgy for the Harvard campus ministries. Of course, we lost a lot of books at each stop.

My only concern is that we make sure that we let folks know that the liturgical celebration is part of a great whole -- a whole lifestyle and mindset, so that we don't end up like the Anglicans who are oftentimes very good at the mix-and-match approach to liturgics. While there is nothing intrinsically wrong with taking a peek at another tradition, it's not really spiritually healthy to just pick and choose. Why? Because one's spiritual life must be an integrated whole that leads one harmoniously towards God. Introducing 'stuff' from elsewhere should only be done with the clear advice of one's spiritual father or mother, or -absent one of them-- one's pastor.

Blessings!

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Orthodox Catholic spoke of all those people complaining about the number of "Lord have mercies." Tell me about it. Father Taras had me sing the 6th hour just prior to the Liturgy. I had to sing "Lord have mercy" forty times in a row. It was hard keeping track. But seriously, I didn't mind and it was still very, very beautiful and awe-inspiring.

Serge,
Thanks for your enthusiasm. When I wrote "Westminster Abbey" in my title, the one in England just never came to mind. I dread to think what you must have thought. Catholics or Orthodox celebrating the Divine Liturgy in an Anglican Cathedral? Sorry for giving the wrong impression.

Dr. John,
I certainly understand your point. I saw the visit of Father Taras to our school as simply a way of getting our kids to learn a bit about the Eastern Church from someone within that tradition. Remember that most of our kids are probably unaware even of the very existence of the Eastern Church.

Ed

Father Taras had me sing the 6th hour just prior to the Liturgy. I had to sing "Lord have mercy" forty times in a row. It was hard keeping track.

Edward,

I do that too — I chant the third and sixth hours before Liturgy, as is Russian custom, so I do it twice. I sometimes count on my fingers or, more often now, make counting easier by putting each group of ten in a different language, switching from the default Slavonic (Gospodi, pomiluj) to Greek (Kyrie, eleison) back and forth, or going from Slavonic to Greek to Slavonic to English!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge and Edward,

This thing about counting the number of "Kirie Eleisons."

An Orthodox bishop showed me an Athonite method that I've been comfortable with ever since.

One uses one's thumb as a pointer to point to the 12 "sections" on one's other four fingers.

You count 12 from the index finger to the pinky finger, then 12 again back to the index finger, then 12 back down to the pinky finger.

Then, as you need four more, count the four fingers for the full 40 count.

Very convenient and easy. Don't you just love those Greeks?

Speaking of Greeks, Dr. John, as you are most learned all things related to the integrity of the Western and Eastern Rites, how do you see your earlier personal history with the Jesuits as part of the maintenance of your own Ritual integrity as a Byzantine?

The Greeks have always had a particular view about the Jesuits, you know . . .

God bless,

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Heh, I've actually served (in the western meaning) Mass at the Shrine of St Edward the Confessor in Westminster Abbey, on the Feast of St Edward (13 October) no less than thrice.

Once a year, RCs are allowed to have Mass at the Shrine of the confessor - that's the only day in the year when the admission fees to the Abbey are waived, in honour of the Saint.

Even Orthodox Liturgies and Tridentine Masses are not unknown in Anglican Cathedrals these days in the UK, in this age of Oecumenical friendliness.

On the Orthodox side, there are frequent pilgrimages to St Winifride's Shrine, among others.

The Latin Mass Society organises Tridentine Masses once in a while at places such as Canterbury Cathedral (I was privileged to attend a Missa Cantata in the Corona Chapel once). Another priest I know who travels around England and Wales on his holidsys simply asks the Cathedral sacristan if he might be allowed to say Mass (not specifying which rite) in a particular chapel/shrine, and permission is always granted. He brings his own vestments and Mass-kit, and he then proceeds to say the Tridentine rite (possibly the first ever in these venerable churches which would have used the Sarum or some other British rite) at the old altars.

Right now I'm in the middle of trying to negotiate a pilgrimage of the London chapter of the Latin Mass Society to the Shrine of St Edward, King and Martyr. Why am I mentioning this on an eastern forum? Simply because his relics lie in an Orthodox church in Brookwood, Surry, and the monks that administer the Shrine are under ROCOR. The monks don't mind the idea of us visiting and saying Mass atop the relics outside their monastic chapel, and the Latins seem to like the idea of visiting this much-neglected saint. Insh'Allah!

Btw, Alex - you say that method of counting Kyrie Eleisons is Athonite? A friend of mine who came back from Axum was taught the exact same thing by an Ethiopian monk, and he taught that to me... I'd always thought it was an Ethiopian thing... someone was telling me the Mahometans do something similar when counting prayers. Goodness.

Yours waxlessly in Domino,

Edward

ps. I picked up a lovely 33-bead set of Mahometan prayerbeads in London, and I'm using it for counting Christian prayers.

pps. I found a 50-knot prayer rope (made my Greek Old Calendarist Nuns no less) that's divided in 5 groups of 10, with a plastic bead dividing each decade. I'm going to give that to my mother, who says several rosaries daily, so she can use that for the western rosary as well as for the Jesus Prayer!

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Edward Yong ]

Dear Patriarch Edward,

There are some Muslim groups that do not believe in using prayer beads of any kind when reciting the Names of God, and so they use their fingers, just as you have described.

The Ethiopians say the "Kirie Eleison" 41 times during their services in honour of the 41 lashes they believe Christ received during His Passion - He was so hated that he received more than the maximum of 39 lashes reserved for the worse criminals.

The number "41" is Ethiopia's great mystical number and they sometimes have prayerbeads with 41 beads or else wooden sticks with 41 knotches.

Those Muslim groups, which are the majority, who do use prayer beads, have them in either 33 or 99 bead sets.

In fact, this is borrowed from the Oriental Orthodox Christians who said their prayers in groups of 33 in honour of the years Our Lord lived on Earth and then did this three times for the number 99.

The Old Rite Russian Lestovka still has a section of 33 "steps" on it in honour of the 33 years of our Lord.

The dividing up of the prayer rope into groups of ten knots, separated by a larger knot or bead, is a way of performing the prostrations using the Jesus Prayer by monks.

One would do ten Prayers with bows, followed by a full prostration. One would do 500 Prayers in this manner.

The Russian New Hieromartyr St Seraphim Zvezdinsky, shot by the Bolsheviks in 1937, reflected a current Russian Orthodox usage in his use of such a prayer rope to say 150 Hail Mary's divided into groups of ten, each headed with an Our Father.

The "Rule of the Mother of God" or, as the Russians also called it, the "Bogarodychna Lestovka" was popularized by St Seraphim of Sarov who expected his spiritual children to say it every day.

The Orthodox Church also claims what the West calls the "Rosary" for itself and that this form of private prayer was given to an Orthodox monk in the 8th century.

Believe it or not . . .

Alex