www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Things the West can do right away

1) No, Cizinec, I do not think the Holy Father erred in telling the Eastern Churches to say the creed the way they always have. I am a big fan of tradition, you know. I nowhere implied that I thought the Holy Father had erred in this respect. I was merely trying to clarify the RC understanding of what we mean by Filioque.

2) Fr. Thomas, the Latin Church does not see anything wrong with saying that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son eternally, as from a single fountainhead. I do not wish to appear like I am arguing against the East here, although I have been known to do that. Here I am just trying to correct a misrepresentation of the Latin position.

Dear LT,

By denying that the RC Church differentiates between an Active spiration of the Spirit by the Father and a passive one by the Son - you ARE misrepresenting the RC tradition!

There is NOTHING in what you've quoted from Aquinas that would indicate that he believed that there was an ACTIVE spiration of the Spirit from both ie in terms of Fount or Origin which he really doesn't treat in that.

Furthermore, he admits the passive spiration of the Son when acknowledges the validity of the Eastern "From the Father through the Son."

But suffice it to say that both East and West CAN find unity by the RC removing the Filioque from the original Creed and by both affirming the above. The Filioque issue can continue to be part of the West's heritage as a theological view. It is just that the West should acknowledge, as Aquinas himself did acknowledge, that the older and scriptural view of the procession of the Spirit from the Father through the Son can be shared with the East.

And Aquinas also notes the interesting footnote in St John of Damascus' "Orthodox Faith" that the East in no wise admits that the Spirit "Proceeds from the Son."

And yet St John D is a saint of the Roman Catholic Church as well, even though he, as we said, denies the "Filioque!"

Did you want to start a petition to Rome to have him removed from the Latin Calendar?

Also, Aquinas' view that there is no way to differentiate between the Son and the Spirit unless by their internal relations is HIS OWN - there were Latin Fathers who agreed with the Greeks that this was not so.

If you want to quote Aquinas as if everything he said was infallible - then that is also misrepresenting the RC tradition.

Alex

Okay Alex.

Aquinas says right there that there is only one spiration.

He also says that whatever the Father has, He gave to the Son, including origin-ship of the Holy Spirit.

LatinTrad

In response to an earlier, less esoteric question, yes I do think that the Pope could intervene if an Eastern Church were badly in need of a reform and persistently resisted this. Obviously this would be a last resort. Heck, Rome only acts to intervene in the particular Latin Churches as a last resort, much to the annoyance of the Traditionalists. I see that we are pretty much in agreement, Alex, after much discussion.
I'll email you about the icon...

Also, can you please give me a source that shows the Latin church holds that the Holy Spirit "proceeds actively from the Father and passively from the Son" ?

I am not upset hust wondering.

No I don't think Aquinas was infallible. I am mere using him to represent the Western tradition on this issue.

LT

Dear LT,

But will you not admit that while the Son does spirate the Spirit, it is different from that of the Father since the Father alone is the Origin of the Trinity?

If you posit two Origins of the Trinity, then that is heresy.

From the RC as well as the Orthodox point of view.

All I'm suggesting is perhaps you look at some seminary-level material to interpret Aquinas a bit.

I would never presume to read the Eastern Fathers without theological commentary.

Would you?

Alex

Do you have any specific sources, brother?

Dear LT,

I'm not berating you - I know this is a difficult question.

I"ll have to go and dig up that info for you when I get back from Paris.

But I think we can all agree that if the Filioque is removed and we agree on the "From the Father through the Son" that we're ahead of the game, no?

The rest can remain as part of our respective theological heritages, no one is saying it can't!

God bless you for your zeal, LT!

Alex

Well if all the Churches in the world just started agreeing with me then we would have perfect unity.

Dear LT,

No doubt about that!

But until such time as the world sees as you do, why don't we affirm unity in what we've always believed and leave the rest as our own Particular Church business?

Alex

Daniel,

I asked

You answered, Take the same scenario (there is reunification, ect.). This time Rome does not notify the Patriarch of Moscow. Rome simply intervenes.

Does the Pope have the authority to do this?

You know as well as I that he would not do this; it would be rude and unthoughtful and deliberately provocative. Radically, he might have the "authority" but he is still bound by charity, not to mention common sense.

"Can't we all just get along?"


...said, ironically, on this, the twelfth anniversary of Rodney King's now-famous utterance (April 29, 1992)...

An astonishing remark from someone who initiated a thread on what the West can do right away ...

This is where the Orthodox are going to throw up their hands. A great, and I would argue not so unfounded, fear is that they would agree to a reunion and a new pope would be elected that is not as understanding as the one with whom they signed the agreement. Have all Roman pontiffs (and, for that matter, all patriarchs in any patriarchate) been charitable and used common sense?

Isn't it possible that a later pope could decide to close all seminaries that ordain married men? Where are the married priests graduating from the EC seminaries here? I know the convoluted reasons given by Rome for this. I don't need them repeated.

Popes through history could slowly use this "authority" to undermine the teachings of the Eastern Churches and replace it with Latin theology. Whether or not that would happen is irrelevant. As long as Rome claims it has the authority to unilaterally take such extreme measures the Orthodox (not in communion with Rome . . . I heard it coming, Alex ) will never agree to a reunion.

Indeed, some of Rome's activities within the Eastern Catholic churches has served as an alarm for the most ecumenically minded Orthodox.