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David, I agree, he's not of Arabic descent, unless it's way back in the family tree. "I believe he is from Scranton, PA area with relatives in the Cleveland area" Contrary to popular belief, not everyone in Scranton is Ruthenian or Ukrainian  . We have a parish there, St. Joseph's, and at least one priest with a Slavic surname from that area. As to Cleveland, the long-time pastor of our parish there (St. Elias), Ignatius Ghattas, of blessed memory, was our second Eparch. Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Alex, there is a married Ruthenian (father is of Rusyn ethnicity, mother's family is Roman Catholic Hunagarian) who was ordained in Tronoto in 1976 (the infamous six) by either Bp. Borecky or Bp. Rusnak. He left Sts. Cyrill and Methodius Seminary and joined the UCGC because he wanted to be ordained as a married cleric. His name is Father Kormanik. He was from my home parish. He visited our parish several times in the '80's and 90's.
Ung-Certez
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A modest but earnest request of a linguistic nature: when referring to "Vladyka" Someone or "Patriarch" Someone, PLEASE do not use the man's surname - this is offensive and insulting (as would be a reference to "Pope Woytyla"). We properly refer to Vladyka Michael, not Vladyka Dudick, and Patriarch Joseph, not Patriarch Slipyj. Incognitus
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Dear Ung-Certez,
Yes, I remember!
It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that the Ruthenian Church, for all its Byzantinization etc. seems to be Latinized on the score of married clergy.
Is there a particular reason?
One would think the Ruthenians would be ahead of the Ukies on this - they are on every other Eastern issue.
Alex
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Dear Incognitus,
Oh, all right already!
Anything else to share beside this important point?
Alex
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Getting rather nit picky around here lately! Originally posted by Irish Melkite: David,
I agree, he's not of Arabic descent, unless it's way back in the family tree.
"I believe he is from Scranton, PA area with relatives in the Cleveland area"
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone in Scranton is Ruthenian or Ukrainian . We have a parish there, St. Joseph's, and at least one priest with a Slavic surname from that area. As to Cleveland, the long-time pastor of our parish there (St. Elias), Ignatius Ghattas, of blessed memory, was our second Eparch.
Many years,
Neil I am sorry Neil. I am sorry for makeing an assumption based on the private conversations I have had with my pastor. I was not aware that you knew him so personally. Originally posted by incognitus: A modest but earnest request of a linguistic nature: when referring to "Vladyka" Someone or "Patriarch" Someone, PLEASE do not use the man's surname - this is offensive and insulting (as would be a reference to "Pope Woytyla"). We properly refer to Vladyka Michael, not Vladyka Dudick, and Patriarch Joseph, not Patriarch Slipyj. Incognitus Incognitus, you would not call the Holy Father, Pope Woytyla, nor would you use his first name either, Pope Karol, would be just as wrong and insulting. But better yet, why don't we leave it to the men to decide what is insulting for themselves. David, the Byzantine Catholic
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Dear David, Incognitus is right. But I sometimes hate being shown when I'm wrong. Grrrr . . . Alex
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David wrote: Incognitus, you would not call the Holy Father, Pope Woytyla, nor would you use his first name either, Pope Karol, would be just as wrong and insulting.
But better yet, why don't we leave it to the men to decide what is insulting for themselves. Well� they have decided! It is the time-honored tradition to refer to bishops using their title and first name. If they take a new name when they become bishop we use that new name. The only exception to this rule is that most English speaking people use the term �Bishop� instead of the ethnic �Kir� or �Vladika� (as in �Bishop Michael�). But that�s a different issue.
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Originally posted by Administrator: David wrote: [b]Incognitus, you would not call the Holy Father, Pope Woytyla, nor would you use his first name either, Pope Karol, would be just as wrong and insulting.
But better yet, why don't we leave it to the men to decide what is insulting for themselves. Well� they have decided!
It is the time-honored tradition to refer to bishops using their title and first name. If they take a new name when they become bishop we use that new name.
The only exception to this rule is that most English speaking people use the term �Bishop� instead of the ethnic �Kir� or �Vladika� (as in �Bishop Michael�). But that�s a different issue. [/b]Yes, I stand corrected, it is time honored tradition, in our tradition, to address bishops by their first name. But it is incorrect to address Latin bishops in this way. Its Bishop Clark, not Bishop Matthew. So I give a little leeway when dealing with Latin Catholics in this, but I know Alex is not such a one. I would add, that my point, about Pope John Paul II stands, we would not address him as Pope Karol. Now for an odd issue. How do we address those Eastern Bishops that have chosen to become Cardinals? As it is always <first name> Cardinal <last name>. So I would think that I am correct to call them Cardinal <last name> as this office is not part of our Tradition. So is it Cardinal Husar or Major Archbishop Lubomyr? David, the Byzantine Catholic
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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:.........
So is it Cardinal Husar or Major Archbishop Lubomyr?
David, the Byzantine Catholic The brief answer is - yes sorry - could not resist
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Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic: Getting rather nit picky around here lately! I am sorry Neil.
I am sorry for makeing an assumption based on the private conversations I have had with my pastor. I was not aware that you knew him so personally.
David, No need to be sorry. I don't know Father Ken all that well and was just offering a couple of observations about what you said (and pointing out that every parish in PA isn't Ruthenian or Ukrainian, cause I just had to do it :p ) Many years, Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally posted by Irish Melkite: Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic: [b] Getting rather nit picky around here lately! I am sorry Neil. I am sorry for makeing an assumption based on the private conversations I have had with my pastor. I was not aware that you knew him so personally. David,
No need to be sorry. I don't know Father Ken all that well and was just offering a couple of observations about what you said (and pointing out that every parish in PA isn't Ruthenian or Ukrainian, cause I just had to do it :p )
Many years,
Neil [/b]True, and you also totally discount my personal conversations with Fr Ken. And please point out where I say that every parish in PA is Ruthenian or Ukrainian.... I did not do so.... I would ask you again, before commenting on my posts please verify what you think. This is the second time you have jumped to conclusions and jumped on me for something you assume I am saying. David, the Byzantine Catholic.
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Hi David, I'm afraid I can't help you on this one. I only know that he is from Scranton and he loves trains. Terry
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David wrote: I would add, that my point, about Pope John Paul II stands, we would not address him as Pope Karol. It was once customary in the entire Church for people to choose or be assigned new names when embarking on a new part of their Christian journey. Someone whose baptismal name is �David� may be tonsured a monk and given the name �Euthymius�. Later in life he may be made bishop and take another name. Still later in life he may become patriarch and take yet another name. It would be appropriate to refer to such a person using their proper �clerical� name. The current Holy Father chose �John Paul II� as his name and it is appropriate to refer to him by that name. I do not know when the Latins went to using last names. My guess is that the custom was very similar until recent times (maybe the past century or so?). David wrote: [b]Now for an odd issue. How do we address those Eastern Bishops that have chosen to become Cardinals?
As it is always <first name> Cardinal <last name>.
So I would think that I am correct to call them Cardinal <last name> as this office is not part of our Tradition.
So is it Cardinal Husar or Major Archbishop Lubomyr? Well, the current head of the Congregation for the Eastern Churches is His Beatitude, Patriarch Cardinal Ignace Moussa I. I believe that the official title in Rome for him is written as His Eminence, Patriarch Ignace Moussa I Cardinal Daoud. Rome would probably use the title �Lubomyr Cardinal Husar� but a title more properly Eastern would be �His Beatitude, Patriarch Cardinal Lubomyr Husar.�
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Originally posted by Administrator: [QUOTE]David wrote: [b] Rome would probably use the title �Lubomyr Cardinal Husar� but a title more properly Eastern would be �His Beatitude, Patriarch Cardinal Lubomyr Husar.� Admin, I understand what you are saying here, but to be proper Eastern shouldn't we wait until some other Church recognizes the Major Archbishop as Patriarch before those of us outside of the UGCC start calling him one? Anyways, his offical website lists him this way, His Beatitude Lubomyr Cardinal Husar Major Archbishop, Head of the UGCC Eparchy of Stryi. I always thought that the title Cardinal comes between first and last name. David, the Byzantine Catholic.
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