www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West How close are the Catholic and Assyrian Church of the East to full union?

I know the two Churches came out with a document a couple of years ago stating that intercommunion was allowed between members of both Churches. Is full ecclesiastical union soon to come? I also hear the Armenian Apostolic Church has good relations with the Catholic Church. Do they have an intercommunion agreement as well? Thank you.

In Christ,
Anthony

I have received communion from an Assyrian priest once and from an Assyrian Metropolitan once.

anastasios

I don't know how close the two are, but wouldn't union be GREAT?!

Logos Teen

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Re-union actually may come this year. The rumor mill (which we Middle Easterners are famous for) has it since the Chaldean Patriarch has died, the Chaldean Eparchs are planing on elected the Assyrian Patriarch to achieve union. The new Patriarch would then ask for Communion with the Pope.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Intercommunion does exist between Catholics and Assyrians. This includes Catholics of all rites. This is the result of the theological and sacramental agreement between Assyrians, Chaldean-Catholics, the RC Synod and Pope John Paul II.

From my modest perspective, as the agreement established full intercommunion between both religious bodies, there would be no need for a regular administrative unity. Maybe this model is desirable for all Apostolic Churches when the hierarchs were willing to negociate. If it was possible for them to analyse and alomost solve the Nestorian controversy that separated the Church in the 4th century, I don't understand why we can't solve the filioque for example.

Because when you have Irish & Italians vs. Russians & Greeks, it's bound to take an eternity!

Logos Teen

Hi,

I need to clarify that this is not precise. Intercommunion between Catholics and Assyrians follows the very same rules and is at the very same status than Intercommunion between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. At least, from the Catholic perspective.

The real practical difference is that the Assyrians are very willing to serve Holy Communion to Catholic faithful, while Eastern Ortodox are very unwilling to do the same.

All the fuss last year was because of a document that declared that the Catholic Church recognizes the Assyrian Eucharist as valid, and therefore, ruled by the special rules for "intercommunion" we find in canon law.

This document was necessary because one of the Anaphoras of the Assyrian Church doesn't include the "Words of Institution", and therefore there was reasonable doubt about its validity by Catholic standards.

The document from the Vatican is very relevant because it establishes that the "Words of Instituion" are not to be used as a unique formula, or even something like a spell in the Eucharist, that the rite for the sacrament of the Eucharist is the whole Eucharistic Prayer, which can take various forms and structures.

The rules for "intercommunion" are that you can receive the sacraments from a non-Catholic minister if:

1. That minister belongs to a Church with valid sacraments.

AND

2. He is willing to administer the sacraments to you.

AND

3. You are not requesting the sacraments from him because of doctrinal error, disobedience or religious indifferentism.

AND

4. Either you don't have access to a Catholic minister OR there is a significant spiritual good coming out of your receiving from the non-Catholic minister.


Provided that you fulfill 1-3, and assuming that "intercommunion" between Catholics and Assyrians can be interpreted as one of the final steps towards full communion between two bodies that have already achieved doctrinal "compatibility", I can't see how you can fail to fulfill 4. Taking those final steps are doubtlessly a great spiritual good.

Shalom,
Memo.

This is a little surprising, I thought that the Assyrian Church was Nestorian. Nestorius was proclaimed a heretic in the 5th century. It would be interesting from a Theological perspective how they reached common ground. One of the major aspects of Nestorianism is the rejection of the term Theotokos.

Dakheton!

Thanks for the explanation Memo.

Actualy the main differences regarding Nestorianism have been related to terminology, the languages that were used at that time, cultural differences, etc. just as those between Catholic and Orthodox, the fruits of ethnic and political disputes, sadly. Assyrian Church of East does recognize Mary as "Virgin Mother of Jesus Christ our God" even when they don't use the direct term "theotokos" because according to their language and religious vocabulary they have reasons to use the other form, at least that's what I know.

I am not still sure if this reunion and full communion will happen, I really hope so Yuhannon. But I remember that last year there were a lot of rumours about the Macedonian Orthodox Church coming into communion with Rome, and Metropolitan Stefan's recognition as Patriarch of Ohrid but at the end this didn't happen.

Greetings all,
I have two questions I hope someone will able to answer. Plus a general interest.

Does the Patriarch of the Assyrians reside outside of Iraq? I was under the impression that he was in the U.S.A. but I am no longer sure of how I got that idea.

If the rumor mill is correct about the possibility of reunion of the two churches has there been any speculation about the future residence of the Patriarch? (I am assuming that the Patriarch is in the U.S.A. for the moment) Also, is it possible that the churches have collaborated on liturgical books and/or a catechism? (OK, that's really three questions)

So finally I wonder if there has been any meaningful dialog between the Greek/Russian Orthodox and the Assyrian church, or what they might think of the possible intercommunion of Assyrians with Catholics.

Peace
Michael

Weren't they in favor of her being titled as "Christotokos", but not "Theotokos?"

I don't really see how it would be a problem for them to use "Theotokos" since, according to Jaroslav Pelikan, Theotokos most accurately is translated as "the one who gave birth to the One Who is God." For me, it's a bit surprising they confess Christ as fully God, since I thought this was their initial problem with the title of Theotokos (but not Christotokos).

Logos Teen

"Also, is it possible that the churches have collaborated on liturgical books and/or a catechism? (OK, that's really three questions)"

The agreements with the Pope established joint commisions that have published Cathechisms and liturgical books used by both synods, and even common seminaries in Iraq. I don't know if this has been truly implemented, but that was the idea.

About the Patriarchal See, the Assyrian one was moved to the USA (Chicago I think) after their period of decadence. In Iraq, the Chaldean Church is much more important in number than the Assyrian Church, whose influence is more important among exiled people. If the reunion happens, the new Patriarch will most likely reside in Iraq, now the Assyrians would not have trouble to accept it because Baath regime is gone.

From what I know, Memo, Assyrians rejected the term theotokos because in their language, it implied that the Blessed Virgin was Mother of God the Father. However, they did not see tow persons in Jesus Christ.

Hi,

You are correct. Mar Dinkha IV, the Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, currently resides in Chicago.


Well, you might be aware that the situation in Irak has changed dramatically in the last few months. The reasons for the Assyrian Patriarch to reside outside Irak might not be valid anymore.

However, the current tendency for Christians in Irak is to emigrate, and therefore, it might be pastorally more sensible to stay outside Irak, and possibly in the USA.

And all of this comes after the GREAT IF. I don't know where this rumor originated, but Assyrians and Chaldeans might not be ready for this bold move. They are different ethnic groups, sadly, divided by more than just the issue of Communion with Rome.

Actually they are even beyond this point, collaborating not only in the creation of liturgical and catechetical materials, but actually with common catechetical efforts and even a common seminary for their clergy.

If there is any pair of Sister Churches, for which this rumor might be even remotely possible at this time, it is precisely this pair.

I am not sure about the current status of this dialogue, but I am sure that the Byzantine Orthodox still call the Assyrians "heretics" and "Nestorians", and still consider Nestorius to be Nestorian (something which ironically, might be wrong, after all).

I am pretty sure that the relations with the Byzantine Orthodox are far behind than those with the Catholic Church.

Shalom,
Memo.

They are different ethnic groups, sadly, divided by more than just the issue of Communion with Rome.

Assyrians-Chaldeans are the same people, the Assyrians. Uniatism had a lot to do with the separaton between both groups.

While the Nestorians preserved their identity as Assyrians, separated from the Arabs and Kurds; Chaldeans prefered to establish tides with their region, Iraq and rejected their own ethnic Nationalism as a result of their contacts with Italian and French Catholic scholars.

A Chaldean in Iraq would probably call himself "Arab Christian" or just "Iraqi Christian. While Chaldeans welcomed and joined the Baath Arab Nationalists, the Assyrians kept their ethnicity and were persecuted because of that.

The idea of a Chaldean nation is much more recent and created by a small group of exiled people in the USA. Talking about a Chaldean Nation would be like talking about a "Maronite Nation", for example. These ideas were just created as an apology for the Chaldean's participation in the Baathi regime.

So finally I wonder if there has been any meaningful dialog between the Greek/Russian Orthodox and the Assyrian church, or what they might think of the possible intercommunion of Assyrians with Catholics.

There was a time in which the Russian Orthodox missionaries reached territories of the Caucasus that had a certain Assyrian and Kurdish population, and they were able to "convert" some. I am not sure but I think they were allowed to preserve their rites. I don't really know what happened later.

If you see it as a good sign, the news about the agreement between Mar Dinkha and Pope John Paul II were posted in several Orthodox sites, including that of the OCA, and it was very possitive.

I believe the Orthodox Church would be enriched if it had more dialogues with the Assyrian Church, but I also think the issue of solving the Nestorian schism is probably in the hands of the Aramaic peoples from whom the Assyrian Nestorians separated. (Just as the Macedonian schism is Greek and Serbian problem, and the Pope refused to interfere). This is why there's the Pro-Oriente dialogue, with representatives of the Assyrian Church, the Syriac Orthodox and Catholic, the Chaldeans and the Maronites.