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I have read and been told that early Irish monastics prayed the Jesus prayer.

That's correct: the names of Mary and Jesus were "later" additions to the FIRST part of the prayer. But the general form was common among all early Christians, Latin and Greek.

However, the West continued to develop the prayer (in Latin, of course) until St. Dominic came up with the Holy Rosary as it is known and prayed today.

What I wanted to clarify is that the SECOND part about Mary, being the Mother of God (Theotokos), etc. was added much later by the Council of Trent.

Thanks for the clarification!

Amado

Amado,

I wonder if Trent drew inspiration from the Sub Tuum since there seem to be some connection (if only in spirit) between the two prayers.

God bless,

Gordo

It's quite possible since the ancient devotional prayer "Sub tuum Praesidium" sounds similar to the "Ave Maria," if we stretch it a bit!

Amado

Actually, there's some (ie much!) scholarly debate among Domicans on the rosary. They certainly promote it as a worthy devotion, but there is some distancing from the idea it was an invention of their founder.

Indeed, some experts quote the sequence of prayers in the form we know as a fifteenth century invention.

What is clear is that some use of beads to count repetitive prayers was well establishede in east and west in the twelth century; I have read of byzantine monks counselling intercessionary prayers to the Theotokos to be counted on komvoschenion on numerous occasions.

Ned

Ned,

"komvoschenion"?

Gordo

I think this would be a Prayer Rope, Gordo -- umm don't know the Greek term - sorry You know the knotted version rather than the wooden beaded Chotki that us Slavs use.

Father Anthony - where are you ?

Anhelyna - in midst of preparations for departure - actually drinking post-prandial coffee :p

That is the Greek term for a prayer rope.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony,

Is it the regular prayer rope - like the Russian chotki?

Hope you are well...

Gordo

Gordo,

There is no difference in the Russian and Greek prayer ropes other than how the knots are arranged, etc. It is used the same way. It is basically used for counting of the different Jesus prayers on it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Thank you father for clarifying that the Prayer rope is used for the "Jesus Prayer" in the Orthodox tradition, both Greek and Slavic.

Just because a specific individual may choose to use his prayer rope for prayers to the Theotokos, does not mean that this is a universal Orthodox practice.

Thnaks for clarifying komvoschnion in my stead; indispensability is not something I want to cultivate.

Re: the last post, I could remark somewhat cheekily that the Rosary isn't universal Catholic practice..

but on a more theological level, I think I said once here regarding the lestovka, and I repeat, that I'm not sure a popular devotion CAN be orthodox or universal practice; not in the sense of something like Typica or the HOurs at any rate. Thus is why I was one of a number of Catholics who disagreed (and still does) with the Pope's promotion of the Mysteries of Light (five new meditations to be said on rosary beads, for orthodox posters). I don't disagree because the meditiative themes are not in themselves profound, beneficial, in keeping with the rosary; they are. I disagree because a formal church document is not appropriate; popular devotional practices are one element of church practice that grow out of the people in the street, not the men in the cathedrals. While the church can certainly mandate liturgical devotions, outside that field they are on shaky ground in my view; the iconoclast controversy should prove the danger of that practice.

Popular devotions are proved valid by their exponents, and are not properly regarded as part of a body of orthodox liturgy etc.

Ned

Can Amado, Ebed Melech or anyone else tell me what exactly the earliest version of the hail mary is? as known to easterners and westerners.

Is this 'Sub tuum Praesidium' the earliest form of the "Hail Mary" for the west?

The idea of imageless prayer possibly leading to pride is strange to me. I've rarely prayed with images in my entire life....What does that mean?
Is this the common eastern (or western) perspective of past and present?

I am profoundly confused by this statement. I need more explanation. I never considered myself to be in any advanced form of prayer..If anything I'm the opposite..but than again..how in the world can we compare one persons prayer to another..isnt't this a little ridiculous?? I can't read peoples minds.

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, the initial part of that hail Mary is encountered in the Gospels, luke 2 from memory; but don't "take it as gospel". One could presume this was circulating for some time prior to committing to paper. My take on the latter bit (the Holy Mary. mother of God bit) is that it's fifteenth century, but I'm happy to be disabused of that notion.

Ned